Crime Rates: U.S. v. England

by StinkyPantz 117 Replies latest social current

• 

  Jayson

  Simon if you were anybody else who has had the attitude that you have shown towards others latley you would ban yourself.

  Rubbish, I allow you to post your diatribes don't I?

  You do not think that you insult people?

  This thread is about "crime" rates between the Nations that S P put up. She did not narrow the field to just "homicide" rates.

  Eactly, it was very unspecific.

  Your data is so narrow it is not relevant to the topic. Which I understand why you choose it. It's like saying that if we can't prove that there are no KKK members in the NRA then that proves that Mike Moore is a truthful film artist when you glorified Bowling For Columbine. In other words to even begin to talk about the UK go through each type of crime single file or all information is dismissed. Why would S P waste her time? Accept the homicide rates, gun related homicide rates. Dismiss Jayson and his questions and comments on mugging London & NY. I still say read the book I recommended.

  
  

  You tried to do that. Why do you think by putting up your opinion that only homicide is worth debating you are right? Is murder the only thing that the police act on in the UK ? Traffic fines and murder rates?

  I think I showed that figures taken in isolation do not give the whole picture which is surely what matters? The post was not "which country has the most non-homicide, non-parking-fine-related crime" was it?

  I think you showed your bias. Even as a devil's advocate you have a recurring theme in every post about the US you make.
  
  

  Why is having a different opinion than you having a "chip." That having the opinion you are bias on the issue of America equals a "chip" should make anyone reading this thread wonder if you are capable of self examination.

  
  I welcome differing opinions. However, some people seem to have a different opinion for the sake of it and against all logic and reason and go out of their way to take and claim offence. I call this having a chip. What would you call it?

  I call it you.

  
  
  

  Lets see on the topic of guns you said Americans who own guns do so to "blow each others brains out."

  
  No, I didn't say that and you know it.

  Simon says

  Tell me, can you explain the problem that America has with guns? Is it something wrong with American society that makes so many want to manage to blow each others brains out?

  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/50594/721197/post.ashx#721197

  You did say it Simon. YOU DID SAY IT
  

  Blah nonsense about carrying a shotgun and state vs federal regulations

  You say blah? Why am I

  (For the most part) it is a CRIME to possess a gun in public without special privleges by the state is "Blah?" On a thead that is about crime that was hijacked to be about homicide and GUNS?

  I lump all of America together because the topic is "Crime Rates: U.S. v. England"
  
  Do you seriously want us to debate it state by state? I'm sorry but I don't have the time or inclination to do this.

  Simon maybe you misunderstand me. I am still talking about gun related homicide rates in the US [via your debate] with the difference in gun laws from State to State in the USA. I still don't think you comprehend that there are very big differences in the law. Those differences are also related to both the homicide rate and the crime rate in the USA. There are big differences in crime from State to State. The USA is a big place. In th UK crime is outragous. Gun related homicide may be lower due to availablity but I am saying that there is a connection to the "other crime" and the laws of the UK denying the rights to self defense of self and property.

  
  The facts speak for themselves and all your waffle is to disguise the fact that England has a lower rate of very violent crimes (eg. homicides).
  

  Waffle no. There is more to crime than homicide unless we are talking about the US vs the UK and then imediatly you draw the sword and start screaming about the US and gun related deaths go off on a fit the thread dies and you claim that "we" or "I" have a chip on my or our shoulder. Simon I am looking to place the "chip" where it belongs.

  Now, if I had attached some value judgements to the facts and said that it showed American society was "lacking" in some ways or was spiralling out of control or that Americans were violent then I would understand your defensiveness but all I have posted is hard figures that as far as I can tell, you are not disputing.

  Your posts on this topic are nothing but judgment Simon. Trying to force me and others to defend is part of the "formation of attitude" in your posts.

  
  Therefore, I suggest you stick to the topic and stop your ongoing attempts to twist everything I post into an attack on your country when it is a million miles from what I've posted.

  I am on topic Simon.
• 

  StinkyPantz

  Jayson-

  Give it up. Simon will never say what you want him to say. He didn't even admit to asking why we "Americans want to blow each other brains out", so why would he admit to anything else? But did he misrepresent you by saying that your words were a lie? Ultimately calling you a liar. RubyTuesday got kicked off for misrepresenting Simon. . hmm. .

  I'm sure that anything he said that seemed anti-US or biased or bigotted was sarcasm. You are merely a childish, uninformed, baby with a persecution complex held down by a huge chip on your shoulder, so get over it!
• 

  Abaddon

  Jayson;

  Lets see on the topic of guns you said Americans who own guns do so to "blow each others brains out."

  No, I didn't say that and you know it.

  Simon says

  Tell me, can you explain the problem that America has with guns? Is it something wrong with American society that makes so many want to manage to blow each others brains out?

  
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/50594/721197/post.ashx#721197

  You did say it Simon. YOU DID SAY IT

  You said Simon said "Americans who own guns do so do so to "blow each others brains out""

  Simon actually said "Is it something wrong with American society that makes so many want to manage to blow each others brains out?"

  This is a straw man argument. You accuse Simon of saying Americans own guns to blow each others brains out; as the evidence shows, you are either incapable of determining the difference between two completely different sentences, or are willing to try to distort facts to win a point.

  If you are right, why are YOU the one lying? Is it that old habits die hard and you are simply adopting theocratic warfare startegy aginst someone you disagree with?

  Check your head Jayson, you make yourself look bad...
• 

  larc

  Well, this has been a very interesting, but a disturbing thread. We have Stinky Pantz starting out with crime statistics. Later, others come on showing other statistics. Frankly, I don't give a flying fork about any of this. Hey, where I live I am relatively safe, as our most people in either country, so move on folks.
  
  As for those from the UK that think we have a "cowboy mentality" that is a crock. Very few of us own guns, and if we do, we don't shoot people randomly. I have never owned a gun, even though I am a very good shot, and was taught how to shoot at the age of seven by my WWII war veteran, marksman father. I learned at seven and at the age of 16, after never firing a gun since came in third in a rifle competitiion. I have never shot a gun since then.
  
  I am really sick and tired of this steroptype about us, which makes all of us look like John Wayne cowboys packen a six gun. Get real, our day to day life is not that much different than yours.
• 

  Simon

  Jayson

  You are proving once again that trying to reason with you is a complete and utter waste of time.

  I will say again in the hopes that you will get a 'glimmer' of understanding:

  • I have not attacked America
  • I posted clear and comprehensive data about the topic being discussed

  I can understand you getting upset when the facts don't agree wth your own little reality that you have going but that's how it is.
• 

  Englishman

  Re the gun thing, I can't see any way out of this for the US. If guns were banned then only the lawful would give them up and the only guns left would be in the hands of criminals. So, at least for the time being, I can see the reason that many law-abiding Americans would want to own guns.

  I became a keen shot about 20 years ago, and would often take part in clay and skeet competitions. Even back then it was virtually impossible to own a hand gun over here, although they can be obtained on the black market if you know the right people. I chose to give up my shotgun licence a while back and don't intend to renew it.

  Cowboys..Over here, when we talk about America, cowboys are what we often think of. All those zillions of westerns that used to be on the TV every week left their mark on the older generation who still recall Bonanza and Wagon Train with fond nostalgia.

  I'm visiting the US in October. Flying in via New Orleans and going on to visit Joy2bfree and Jst2laws in Florida. Maybe I'll meet up with a few people there from here.

  Englishman.
• 

  Abaddon

  larc;

  The problem is that people cannot explain the huge disparity between murder rates in Europe and the USA;

  It's nothing to do with the availability of guns

  The murder rate was five times higher in New York than in London when they had comparable gun laws.

  It's nothing to do with media hysteria

  The murder rate was higher before modern media.

  It's nothing to do with race

  Over time, as the economic status of an ethinic community changes, the level of crime by members of that community changes; it's economic disadvantage that drives people to crime, not ethnicity.

  It's nothing to do with automatic weapons

  The murder rate was higher before assault weapons existed.

  It's nothing to do with drugs

  The murder rate has been higher way before prohibition, the 'War on Drugs', and modern drug empires.

  It's nothing to do with cowboys

  The murder rate has been consistant for one hundred years or more.

  Why does it happen then? I've never felt threatened ONCE in the USA, I've never been treated with anything other than courtesy, the people I've known and know seem no more liable to homocide than European friends.

  I am curious. I'm amased more Americans are not more curious. I understand asking yourself "Why do Americans kill each other five times more often than Europeans", is difficult, but in order to address the problem the cause of the problem need to be identified, and I know everyone will agree that the lives that could be saved make it worthwhile to ask those uncomfortable questions.
• 

  searchfothetruth

  Look Folks,

  If you're one of the ones who have accused Simon of being Anti-American on this thread, just go back to the top, read the thread properly, and then apologise.

  This thread was started as a dig at Britain, saying they had a higher crime rate as the US. That is total and utter crap and the figures prove the fact.

  For Britains 68 gun deaths, read 11,402 for the US, for one example. Britains 'crime rates' include speeding fines which are concentrated on by the police because they get the revenue to keep, and put up more speed camera's. In the courts the convictions for sppeding have gone up over 700% in the last few years.

  But because the arguement was slipping away from some of our American friends, they attack the messenger once again, proving that they will not let anything come between themselves and the belief that they alone are right.

  Show me anywhere on this thread, before the accusations of 'Anti-Americanism' started where anyone made an 'Anti-American' comment.

  If you don't want to discuss threads that may bring a bit of criticism to your country, then don't read them.
• 

  StinkyPantz

  Abaddon-

  I'm amased more Americans are not more curious.

  How many is more? For all you know, the majority of Americans might be asking themselves the same questions, I know that I do. Why do you suppose that England's crime rates have risen so much since your gun laws were changed? A person can be curious all they want but that changes nothing. People get into the field's of Sociology and Psychology (me included) trying to figure out WHY people do the things they do. I will admit that I do not wonder why England's rates are lower, I concentrate on my country.

  No one has denied that the homicide rate(s) in the U.S. is too high. Fortunately for some and unfortunately for others our constitution gives the right to bear arms to its citizens and I doubt that'll be changed in the near future, no matter how curious we get about the issues. I do not deny that the availibilty of guns facilitates the higher homicide rate, but like I said, Americans have the right by means of the constitution, to have guns.

  I personally try to do things on an individual level, though I have seriously considered being a lobbyist in D.C. I volunteer and try to help out disadvantaged kids. I realize that I am only one person, but I think it's starts with the individual.
• 

  StinkyPantz

  SOT-

  This thread was started as a dig at Britain, saying they had a higher crime rate as the US. That is total and utter crap and the figures prove the fact.

  Look, England's crime rate IS higher! Murder is not the only crime considered when I made this statement. Yes, if you look at ONLY homicide, the U.S. is higher, BUT overall England's crime rate it higher. Got it?

  One other thing I'd like to point out. The majority of suicides in the country are due to gunshot wounds. I once read that these are included when tabulating statistics regarding gun deaths. "In 2000, 56.5% of suicides (16,586) were committed using a firearm." So see, thousands of firearm death are suicides and that inflates th numbers.