Has your life gotten better as an athiest/agnostic? (page 11)

Myxomatosis

Hi Greven,

<<When I left though, I was determined to find objective truth: how do I know there is a God? Is the bible reliable, inspired? etc etc. These are not details! An entire beliefsystem is constructed upon it, and a life adjusted to it. My queste for truth showed these to be uninspired, inconsistent and often plain wrong.>>>

Ok, so it's quite obvious you've read the arguments against the Bible, Christianity, wotever, I am curious to what you've read on the 'other side' of that, the facts that are more to the pro leaning you know? Perhaps you've come to think that 'checking out both sides' is checking out the criticism of what you 'believe' I'm not saying you haven't, but I've read why the bible isn't reliable, inspired again, on the ex-Christian web, but I have also read the argument for why it IS inspired reliable, etc. If you have only ever been a Jehovah's Witness, then I think you would agree you never had the 'truth' Biblically to begin with? At least, I would say absolutely 100% not... I would like to recommend the books I'm currently reading actually if you'd be interested, and if you want to keep searching on this subject, only if you're interested.

<<<<That doesn't mean I toss the moral codes, mind you. It simply means I do not see the writings as God's but human.>>>

two words honey 'Mere Christianity' C.S. Lewis, please do read it.

disagree with it, but please read it?

*In Pitch Dark

I go walking in your landscape
Broken Branches
Trip me as I speak

Just cos you feel it
doesn't mean it's there*

-Radiohead
'There There'

Realist

hello myxomatosis,

hope you don't mind if i jump in here

I think the ultimate test for anything is not that it can be 'proven' but it CAN NOT be disproven.

that is not true in most cases. a theory has to be testable in order for your statement to work. i can claim that there are little green man living on a planet 5 million light years away. this claim CAN NOT be disproven - not because it is an accurate claim but because there is simply no way of verifying that claim.

as to the rest of your post...what is the strongest evidence you have that the christian (or any god for that matter) exists. maybe we can focus on that.

Schöne Grüsse,

realist

Myxomatosis

Hi Realist!

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to explain myself.

<I think the ultimate test for anything is not that it can be 'proven' but it CAN NOT be disproven.>

<that is not true in most cases. a theory has to be testable in order for your statement to work. i can claim that there are little green man living on a planet 5 million light years away. this claim CAN NOT be disproven - not because it is an accurate claim but because there is simply no way of verifying that claim.>

I agree hon! Thanks for bringing that up, I couldn't exactly put into words what I was trying to say, and like I said, it was late, even later now. I actually found that statement puzzling myself lol, that's why I said 'I don't know what I'm talking about' but...I've thought of what I meant to say *i think*. That is, that perhaps it is best to start from the assumption that it is NOT TRUE, that there is NOT a God, that Christ did not live, etc etc., and then try to prove that, start trying to disprove what is 'truth' to some, does that make a little more sense? ehhh. Yeah, I think that's what I meant. (Also, with the whole thing about 'parousia' or the 'invisible presence' as Raymond Franz says that is a very difficult thing to disprove, and you and he are right)

<as to the rest of your post...what is the strongest evidence you have that the christian (or any god for that matter) exists. maybe we can focus on that.>

In a word, as a Christian? Yeshua

Of course, I will answer this more fully, and if you have any more specific questions or doubts, or wotever in regard to Him, then please start me off, if you don't mind?? :)

Are you really from Austria by the way??? Or just like the flag or something?

Es war nett dich kennengelernt, realist.

(any good?)
aufwiedersehen

Myxomatosis

greven

Hi myxomatosis (funny handle!),

I think you misunderstood my post a bit...

You reacted to this piece of my post:

Why would you base anyhing, like the existance of God, on faith at all? I am not saying you are wrong. Your conclusion can be valid, but should be build upon solid research, get the facts, look upon the issue from various stances, hear pro and con and then make up your conclusion

This was a reaction to hamster:

You're asking me to justify and more or less prove why I believe in God. How in the world am I supposed to do that? Especially when the religion is based around faith.
If you seriously want answers, then I suggest you talk to someone more qualified than me. All I can tell you is how I believe. I do know some things about the Bible, but I can't scientifically prove everything.
And if neither side can be proven, then why are you scoffing at my beliefs?

Here he states that he has no facts to back up his faith. And this is what I atacked. I did not state that there are no facts available that could justify faith. Nor do i believe all Christians are airheaded, for from it! You seemed to think that I did. No, faith is fine but one should be able to give the facts it is build upon, he simply stated that he couldn't prove anything and that it therefore came to faith. Now that is not (at least for me) reason enough to believe in (a) God(s).

You, on the other hand, seem to have solid reasons for your faith and believe in God. You have done extensive research into this matter! I am very interested in your reasons for faith and belief, please enlighten us so we can have a debate.

As to your question:

Ok, so it's quite obvious you've read the arguments against the Bible, Christianity, wotever, I am curious to what you've read on the 'other side' of that, the facts that are more to the pro leaning you know?

Phew! What have I read? Well I visited multiple websites both pro and con for example:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and a christian refutation of this on http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.org

http://www.talkorigins.org/

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html#creationism (done numerous websites here)

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html#evolution (most also done)

Also I followed debates between people arguing for and against the infallability of the bible ( regular debates are held at: http://www.infidels.org , (find it in the forums) and on http://www.theskepticalreview.com)

Also I read numerous books pro and con but the titles...wooofff bad memory. Anyway I gave both sides a good hearing for more then two years before reaching my conclusions. I must admit however that I hardly read anything about easter religions. After tossing the Judeo/Christian concept of God I moved to the existance of God(s) in general. So I went beyond holy books and religion, reviewing the concept in general.

Oh almost forgot to mention: I am an undergraduate student biology (graduate to master this year if everthing turns out ok...) 'Mere Christianity' C.S. Lewis? Never heard of it. I will get it. Thanx for the suggestion. May I give a sugestion as well? 'Small Gods' by Terry Pratchett, a very amusing book that mixes philosophy and religion with Monty Python like humor. It may change the way you think about it, if not it's still is a very entertaining book that you will enjoy.

I think the ultimate test for anything is not that it can be 'proven' but it CAN NOT be disproven.

My guess is that you are getting sleepy . Realist answered this quite well. There are few things that can be disproven, the existance of a square circle for instance. But for most claims, especially extraordinary ones, positive proof is needed before belief. Remember disbelief is the default.

Thanks for your nice replies! It's nice conversing with you. Welcome to the site btw.

I am looking forward to your reply, sleep well !!

Greven

Realist

Myxo,

That is, that perhaps it is best to start from the assumption that it is NOT TRUE, that there is NOT a God, that Christ did not live, etc etc., and then try to prove that

hmmmm i am not sure if i understand this right. you mean we have to prove that there is no god?

In a word, as a Christian? Yeshua

what about jesus? he exists only in the bible so how can he serve as valid proof?

Are you really from Austria by the way??? Or just like the flag or something?

i am really in and from austria

where are you from???

Es freut mich auch Dich kennenzulernen!

Bis bald,

realist

StinkyPantz

I'm a Christian (never been a JW) who is very interested in 'debating' let's start?

Get out of my thread!!!!! Start a new thread to debate in!!!! Seriously!!!

please enlighten us so we can have a debate

I'm not interested in having a debate. I'm sorry I made it seem that way. I explained how I felt. People attacked it, and I tried to elaborate further.

Now if all you seek is intellectual enlightenment, then I suggest you look elsewhere.

Realist

Oxnard,

so if mohammed had claimed to be God's son you would follow him?

Has your life gotten better as an athiest/agnostic?

Myxomatosis

Realist

Myxomatosis

greven

Realist

StinkyPantz

AlanF

Oxnard Hamster

Oxnard Hamster

Realist

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