by Kenneson 46 Replies latest jw friends
If you matched Christ Church up to that list, which ones apply?
That's a good question. I actually think the Bible promotes some cult like behavior. Or at least it isn't too difficult to twist scriptures to support cult like behaviors. The WTS is very good at finding scriptures to "support" their cult mannerisms.
Ravyn, that's an excellent summary of what defines a cult.
ok, back to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I can't tell the story better than this webpage, and online book. It's about all there is to the story in a nutshell. It's something we may really never know the whole truth. The Church claims they weren't responsible, while others say they were. But none of us were there, so it's up in the air.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadowscontents.htm
to explain my earlier statements:
I personally don't have a problem with most JW doctrine. It all sounds reasonable, the problem doesn't lie in any 'out there' theories of theirs. The problem lies in the fact that they have no backing for these theories from a book they claim is pure, and the last written word of God. But, beyond that, I have a problem with their many many failed Prophecies and their hypocrisy. I don't have a problem with their BoM contradicting the Bible either, and I always held the opinion that the Bible has been ripped apart to such a degree, it's hard to tell what's up and what's down in it. Besides the fact that the Bible contradicts itself. The Bible is not pure, newsflash for anyone that believes it is. We've seen in our own lifetime that it's been hacked to death (NWT). So if God can't, or chose not to protect it from these Watchtower Hackers, what makes us think he has for the last several centuries? As for archaeology, there are some things that back up BoM teachings, but it's true that there aren't many. But then again, archaeology contradicts the Bible constantly as well.
I don't believe that it would be ok, or more acceptable for the JWs to have proof from one of their books, that back up their doctrine. Although, had they come across a book that they claimed was from God, or had they claimed that God himself came to them and appointed them director of his restored Church, I would have more respect for them. What I meant by this, is that I don't buy this theory that they are the 'truth' because they 'think' they know more about God than anyone else, nor could I ever even consider that a possibility with any religion. Even if they had all their doctrines in order, and they did know all there was to know about God and his Kingdom, that still doesn't mean that they are his chosen people. Knowing truth only goes so far, there's so much more to it, like actually being appointed by God would help plenty. With this being said, I would look more seriously into a claim of "God told me this" than I would a claim of "I figured this out on my own". Both may be frivolous for all I know, but I would hold more stock in the off chance that God communicated with someone than I would in a theory that some drunk from PA came up with on his own.
Do I think the Mormon actions are noble because they go by a book that happens to contradict a book I have little faith in? No, I just have more respect for their 'theories' than I do for the JW. It just so happened that I had alot of the same theories as the LDS Church way before I knew they existed, so I am a bit 'sympathetic' to their beliefs. Right or wrong, I believe what I believe regarding God, on my own accord, through prayer and studying and having this infinite wisdom God gave me (kidding). But, I believe that the BoM and the Mormon doctrines in general clear up alot of discrepancies in the Bible. Again, whether or not they're correct is besides the point, they just make sense to me.
For instance, they believe that Jehovah is Jesus, not God the Father. BUT, they don't believe in the Trinity. This explains alot to be about the confusion throughout the Bible, for instance why the name Jehovah doesn't appear once in the NT, yet Jesus does, and the name 'Jesus" doesn't appear in the OT. AND, Jesus repeatedly claimed that the Father was great than he. The Mormons also claim that God has a wife, and that Jesus has a wife. Early Christians believed in a 'Mother God', which was recently discovered in archeological digs. I could go on and on, on what draws my curiosity, but that wasn't the question was it?
So let me get this straight... if they had backing for their actions/beliefs from one of their books that they claim is pure, it would be ok? Mormons invent a book and since they believe it is pure, their actions based on such a book are noble?
I fully agree that the bible is full of contradictions. I don't believe it is inspired. (Actually I don't even believe in god.) But I'm curious as to why you are able to put so much faith in the BoM when it has been torn apart by critics.
I don't necessarily put alot of faith into the book, nor do I discount it. I do realize it has been ripped apart by critics, but alot of the 'ripping' didn't fly with me. For instance, for years BoM critics claimed the book was wrong because it spoke of Horses and Oxen. Meanwhile, we KNEW that these animals were not on this continent until the Spanish came. OK, so they had something there right? The Mormons claimed that perhaps one of two things were to explain this:
1. There WERE these animals, we just don't have proof
2. That Joseph Smith used words we'd understand. Or he saw big animals and just called them horses and Oxen
Come to find out several years ago they found a horse in Louisiana that dates back 8 thousands years or something, way before the Spanish were here. So, while I don't, or haven't based my eternal life on the book, I won't base my decisions on it because of what some dim-wit critic has to say.
I used my own mind to leave the Watchtower, and if I ever join a new religion, I'll use the same methods. I would/will/do take into consideration other people's thoughts of course, but my mind and my heart is what controls me, and if I do it any other way, there is no 'me'
in a nutshell :) Rev ---------- LambsRoar.org
Rev, thanks for the explanation.... I now understand what you are saying.
I used my own mind to leave the Watchtower, and if I ever join a new religion, I'll use the same methods.
Very well summarized!
The Mormon beliefs are quite interesting, I'll give you that. I was aware that they believe Jehovah is simply Jesus in the OT. I was also aware that they believe God (Elohim, right?) had sex with Mary and that's where Jesus came from. And Satan is a brother of Jesus. I also heard they believe everyone was "alive" before being born on earth, and will return to their previous form (flesh and bone, not flesh and blood) after death. I also heard there are many levels of heaven and that they believe even JWs will go to heaven. Those that attain the highest level of heaven will become gods themselves, right? That's some weird stuff, but interesting.
Regarding the origins of the LDS church, I believe you can dig up a bunch of dirt just like you can with the WTS. In addition, there are still a bunch of unexplaind oddities about the BoM... it was supposedly translated by Joseph Smith (in the 1800's?) from some ancient language into English, yet it uses 16th century English in parts. Supposedly one explanation is Joseph Smith took quotes directly from the KJV bible. How is that reconciled? Also, why did the original gold plates disappear? Why would god do that? And the BoM teaches of great civilizations existing in the Americas, but there is no evidence of that at all from an archaeological standpoint. The bible has much archaeological evidence to support that at least the cities and people mentioned within existed. And if God inspired both the bible and the BoM, why does the bible warn against those that teach things contrary or things not found in the bible?
Well that's just my $0.02.... I'm atheist anyway so take it with a grain of salt.
There is some heavy material in those 2 cents!
Most of which is what keeps me from joining.
There's an old saying in the Mormon World - "Either Joseph Smith was telling the truth, OR he's the most intelligent, greatest con-artist in all of world history" (or something like that) - This statement rings of truth, but it's a grand spectrum to choose from.
I myself don't think this guy was all that bright. No offense to him, but he had no education, and he was sort of a loser in the eyes of society. So I've battled back and forth on the subject of this guy alone.
The Mormon beliefs are quite interesting, I'll give you that. I was aware that they believe Jehovah is simply Jesus in the OT. I was also aware that they believe God (Elohim, right?) had sex with Mary and that's where Jesus came from. And Satan is a brother of Jesus.
Sort of. They don't believe Satan is his physical brother, but that is a common misconception. They believe they are brothers, like they believe you and I are brothers, sort of, but not to the extent that some think. They believe that Jesus was God's only begotten son, that he was pro-created by God the Father and his Heavenly wife. Satan on the other hand is a creation. They don't believe that God had actual sex with Mary, but they do believe the Holy Ghost impregnated her physically. If you ask them, they'll say they don't know exactly what that entails, and that there are many mysteries in the heavens. Which, by the way, you have to respect. Instead of making up some mumbo jumbo swallowed from head quarters, they simply say "We don't know". I don't know about you, but when I was a witness, I thought I always had to have the answers, and if I didn't, I'd get them from the Elders. You were a JW right? I'm not sure, but that's the way it was for me. If I did have to say "I don't know", it was followed up with "But I'll find out for you!" Some of the older Mormons do believe there was an actual sexual act between Mary and the HG, but it's one of those things that went around for a while till the Church clarified their stand on it. But, according to the Church, it's ok for their members to believe that if that's what they believe. Again, they're allowed to have variations in their beliefs.
I also heard they believe everyone was "alive" before being born on earth, and will return to their previous form (flesh and bone, not flesh and blood) after death. I also heard there are many levels of heaven and that they believe even JWs will go to heaven. Those that attain the highest level of heaven will become gods themselves, right? That's some weird stuff, but interesting.
In a nutshell, they believe in pre-existence. That we came to earth to learn human emotion, etc. "Adam Sinned, so that we might live". They believe that Adam's sin was a plan, and HAD to happen so that we would learn all these emotions. Earth is a big learning experience. That's why Mormons are generally real intelligent, they're big into schooling (BYU for example).
As for heaven, they don't claim to have a cornered market. Anyone can be accepted. There are different levels though, three to be exact, and then 'outer darkness', where Satan will be locked up. The three levels are Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial - Heaven, earth, and sort of in between. if you accept Christ in this life, you're headed to the top, to live with God in Heaven, and you can at some point 'become like god'. The middle is if you accept Christ after you die. You get a second chance there, and the third is Paradise earth, for the ones that deny Christ even after death. The punishment of living in Paradise is the fact you must live knowing you could have lived with God in Heaven. I know it sounds far fetched, but so does the thought of there being a God in the first place. If you can believe that you can believe anything (but you don't of course, so it must REALLY sound odd to you, haha)
Regarding the origins of the LDS church, I believe you can dig up a bunch of dirt just like you can with the WTS.
true, just not as harsh. The Watchtower made a very very big mistake, and that was documenting all their insane ideas, and attempting so many prophecies. But then again, they're still kicking so no big deal to them I guess.
In addition, there are still a bunch of unexplaind oddities about the BoM... it was supposedly translated by Joseph Smith (in the 1800's?) from some ancient language into English, yet it uses 16th century English in parts. Supposedly one explanation is Joseph Smith took quotes directly from the KJV bible. How is that reconciled?
This is what actually caused me to cancel my baptism......no wait, I got past this one finally, then the Temple Ceremonies being very similar to the Masons is what ultimately got me. They don't really have a reason for it. The best one I got was that he did in fact copy word for word from the KJV. 2 Nephi I believe quotes Isaiah word for word, and exactly as printed in the KJV. Some believe he did it intentionally because that's what people were used to reading at that time, something familiar I suppose. Some believe God told him to do it, some haven't a clue. The thing that gets me though, is if he was so intelligent as to come up with this huge scam, and create this brilliant written work, then why would he screw it up by not changing the format in which Isaiah's words were written in the KJV? I just don't get why he did it this way. Alot of Mormons believe it's a test from God. They base their entire faith on......faith! They won't argue doctrine. If you try, they say "Pray to God and ask him, he'll let you know the truth". How do you fight with something like that?? Haha, it's all very funny if you think about it. I hate that JWs will argue till death, and it drives me nuts the LDS won't argue at all. There needs to be a happy medium.
Also, why did the original gold plates disappear? Why would god do that?
I don't know what their view on this one is, but I would guess faith. If we had solid proof it'd be too easy for us. So, read your BoM and pray to God and ask him if it's true. If he answers you, give me a ring.
And the BoM teaches of great civilizations existing in the Americas, but there is no evidence of that at all from an archaeological standpoint.
Ya, this is a bit troubling as well. We have the incas and the myans and such, but no Nephites....where oh where are the Nephites? You got me swinging. Again, I wouldn't gamble my eternal; life on this alone, but as a package deal it's enough to make me keep searching. You know, I have been studying off and on with these guys for 15+ years. I know more about that religion than most of them do, and I definitely know more than I ever did or will about the Watchtower. It's funny really. A couple of months ago we were at the LDS Church, and the assistant to the Bishop came up to me, and he told me if I ever had questions about the Church to call him. I looked at him, and I said "I can guarantee you that I know more about your religion than you do!" - I was joking, but he didn't seem to think it was funny. Although he did say "Yeah, you probably do..." and walked away, LOL.
The bible has much archaeological evidence to support that at least the cities and people mentioned within existed. And if God inspired both the bible and the BoM, why does the bible warn against those that teach things contrary or things not found in the bible?
Again, I don't know what the Church's stand on this is, but for me this is an easy one. This was written in Revelations, and the writer was speaking of the book of revelations in itself. not God's word in it's entirety. How do I know this? Because Revelations wasn't the last book written :)
Rev
I don't know about you, but when I was a witness, I thought I always had to have the answers, and if I didn't, I'd get them from the Elders. You were a JW right?
Yes, I was a JW and felt exactly like you do. The WTS provides or at least tries to provide answers to EVERYTHING. When I left the org, that was one of the arguments my parents gave me... "well, you won't be happy because you won't have answers to everything any more!" lol
and you can at some point 'become like god'
So Satan's big lie in the Garden of Eden is not a lie after all... ?
They won't argue doctrine. If you try, they say "Pray to God and ask him, he'll let you know the truth". How do you fight with something like that?? Haha, it's all very funny if you think about it. I hate that JWs will argue till death, and it drives me nuts the LDS won't argue at all. There needs to be a happy medium.
Heh... that explains why I was never successful when "arguing" with LDS missionaries when they came to my door. (I was still a JW at this point.) Yeah, how can you possibly counter the "pray to god and he'll give you a feeling" argument.
I don't know what their view on this one is, but I would guess faith. If we had solid proof it'd be too easy for us.
And that's what JWs teach about Noah's Ark. "If humans actually found the ark then we wouldn't need faith!" That is a really lame cop-out. I always hated that line of reasoning even as a JW. It's just way too convenient of an explanation.
I know more about that religion than most of them do
No doubt! I think it sometimes ruins it though. It's easier to be involved in a religion when you're "blissfully ignorant." But after leaving the JWs I won't ever let that happen again.
his was written in Revelations, and the writer was speaking of the book of revelations in itself. not God's word in it's entirety. How do I know this? Because Revelations wasn't the last book written :)
Yeah, that's basically how I've had Mormons refute that argument. Actually the quote is not from Revelation but from Galations 1:8. Also, I think the argument is flawed. The bible doesn't say "declare something AFTER this" but it says "declare something BEYOND this". I think that's different. The BoM goes way beyond the bible as far as what reward humans will receive for being good Christians. The books of the bible written after Galations still talk about the same reward.
Interesting discussion...
oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to Revelations 22:
18 *I* testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any one shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 19 And if any one take from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
I thought they claimed that pieces of Noah's ark were found?
You know, I really hate when I find out some BS has been put in my head that doesn't belong there, it really gets to me.
And that's what JWs teach about Noah's Ark. "If humans actually found the ark then we wouldn't need faith!" That is a really lame cop-out. I always hated that line of reasoning even as a JW. It's just way too convenient of an explanation.
I suppose it could be a lame cop out, but then again, if God does exist (and between you and I, a day doesn't go by that I don't wonder), then maybe it is his way. Like when he took the Ark of the Covenant to Heaven with him.
You know what always got me about the JWs explanation for why there must be a God. Those stupid pictures of that dude building his house while his wife makes lunch. "A house needs a builder...." - That's because the house doesn't have life, it's inanimate you yahoos. Explain to me how the universe is SO complex that it must have a creator, meanwhile you want me to believe that something complex enough to CREATE this complex universe has always been here. No creator, no nothing, he just sat around for centuries upon centuries until one day he felt like doing something. Give me a break. That's another reason I'd buy into the LDS theory before anyone else's. In their faith, he DIDN'T sit around for centuries, he once was a man who rose to Godhood, and this has been going on for centuries. At least they have an explanation of what the guy has been doing with his life, haha.
As for that question about Satan not really telling a lie. Damn, that's a good one, I might have to jump on the phone and ask someone about that. I'm curious to see what their answer would be. These are all the things that keep me searching, and not joining any religion. There's always something that pops up and makes me go 'hmmmmmm'. And I agree, sometimes it would be easier if I were an idiot and bought everything they said, then at least I'd get to go to the Church picnics and enjoy the socialism in peace, haha.
Rev
