Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Does that mean they believe there are two groups of believers, one that rules with Christ as kings and priests in heaven, and the other that lives as subjects of the kingdom in paradise on earth? Because that’s what I’m talking about.

    @SBF

    Yes, but theologians wouldn't put it like that. The apostles and the early Christian leaders all taught a literal 1000 yr. Kingdom Reign on earth populated by the survivors of the GT in the flesh, who still retain their sin nature, but will have extended life-spans like in the days of Noah.

    This was one of the primary reasons I stopped viewing the WT as unique. A lady pointed this out to me in field service, that hundreds of millions of non-WT afiliated Christians believe same a JW's.... they just don't believe that the change has taken place yet, while the WT claims the change took place in 1914.

    The problem you are having is that you are thinking in terms of destination (heaven vs. earth) to try and make sense of scriptures. That is a Watchtower trick. The proper way to view the differences is through the passage of time. By viewing scriptures on the proper time-line, they all work togher perfectly.

    Timeline of The End Times

    What the Watchtower did was use time distortion to create a whole new heretical religion by highlighting scriptures (ad infinitum) that referred to believers in the final part of the GT & the Millennial Reign. They did this while convincing gullible uneducated members that the Church Age had ended in 1914.

    Now, just getting end times stuff wrong won't damn a person. But, what WT did was then use their phony (invisible) 2nd Coming as an excuse to reject the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" described in Mt. 26: 27-28 ; and that will damn a person because there is simply no such thing as a Christian outside of the NC. The contractural blood-covering is what makes a person a Christian.

    Remember: the New Covenant is "for the forgiveness of sins", not only ruling positions in heaven. By highlighting destination over time-passage (dispensation), the Watchtower created the illusion of a two group salvation. In reality, man has always been saved by grace through faith regardless of the dispensation of time they lived in. So, because of this - there is really only one group of people who get saved, not two, 4 or 7. That one group is simply people who believe God. How God relates to man changed through the dispensations; some of the plans for believers in various dispensations have been adjusted - but how we get saved has been the same since the Fall.

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  • Konagirl
    Konagirl

    @FreetheMasons - "Jehovah is coming back".

    From where?

    No scriptural proof whatsoever that God will walk the earth in the flesh.

    “They see delusion and their omens are a lie. They say, "the Lord declares," though the Lord has not sent them; yet they expect their word to be confirmed.” Ezek 13:6

    God is Spirit,(John 4:24) and we worship Him in spirit and truth. But His Son who walked the earth, and appeared in the flesh to his disciples even after his resurrection…

    His Son, made in the perfect image of the Father (Col 1:15)…yes, he will, along with his angel/messenger anointed servants /symbolic "144,000") proven faithful, and all of God’s children.

    Also your descendants (Jacob’s descendants) shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Gen 28:14

    Gen 28:10-14; 22:18; Gal 3:29; Rom 98:8; Acts 2:38-39; John 1:51; Heb 1:6; Acts 1:10-11

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Some resources:

    The Jehovah’s Witness interpretation of two groups—one destined for heavenly life and the other for life on a restored earthly paradise—is a key aspect of their theology. However, there are significant issues with this two-class system when compared to the broader biblical context.

    The idea of two distinct “classes” of believers—one for heaven and one for earth—does not align with the overall message of the New Testament, which emphasizes the unity of all believers in Christ. Ephesians 4:4 states, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called." This clearly indicates that there is only one hope for believers, not two separate destinies. All believers are united in the same hope of eternal life with God, whether in a renewed heaven or a renewed earth.

    Revelation is a highly symbolic book, and interpreting the 144,000 as a literal number while interpreting other elements symbolically creates inconsistency. The number 144,000 can be understood symbolically as representing the fullness of God's people. The 144,000 is derived from 12 (representing the tribes of Israel) multiplied by itself and then by 1,000 (often symbolizing a large number). This suggests that the 144,000 represents all of God's people throughout history, not just a select few. This symbolic interpretation aligns with the vision of the “great multitude” in Revelation 7:9, which describes an innumerable group from all nations who stand before the throne of God.

    In passages like Galatians 3:28, Paul states that "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This points to a unity among believers, rather than a division into separate classes with different destinies. The "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) includes all believers in Christ, not a select group of 144,000 distinct from others.

    Revelation 5:9-10 says that believers are made "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth." This reign is not limited to a specific number of 144,000 but applies to all those redeemed by Christ’s blood. 1 Peter 2:9 similarly describes all believers as "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession."

    The "first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20:5-6 refers to the resurrection of believers who will reign with Christ during His millennial kingdom. This reign is part of the victory of Christ's kingdom, in which all believers participate. The "rest of the dead" in this passage are those who are not part of this first resurrection, but this does not necessarily imply a separate group with a different destiny. The distinction is not between believers who reign and believers who are merely subjects, but between the faithful who partake in the victory of Christ and those who do not.

    Revelation 21:1-3 describes a new heaven and a new earth where God will dwell with His people. This vision of unity between heaven and earth contrasts with the idea of two separate classes of believers. The entire creation is renewed, and God’s people—united as one—dwell with Him forever. This reflects the broader biblical theme of the unification of heaven and earth, rather than a division between those who go to heaven and those who remain on earth.

    While Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret the 144,000 as a literal number destined for heavenly life and see a distinction between two groups of believers, this interpretation does not align with the larger biblical narrative of unity in Christ and a shared hope for all believers. The symbolic nature of Revelation, the emphasis on one hope for all Christians, and the vision of a renewed heaven and earth all point to a unified destiny for believers, where all reign with Christ as part of His eternal kingdom. The two-class system creates unnecessary divisions that are not supported by Scripture when interpreted in its full context.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Sea Breeze

    The assertion that "the apostles and early Christian leaders all taught a literal 1000-year Kingdom Reign on earth" overlooks the diversity of eschatological views in early Christianity. While some early Christians did hold millennialist views (often referred to as chiliasm), it is a mistake to claim this was a uniform teaching among the apostles or the early Church.

    The claim that "Amillennialism started with Augustine in the early 400s" is overly simplistic. Augustine's views did significantly shape Western Christianity's eschatology, but amillennialism—or the idea that the "millennium" is symbolic and not a literal earthly reign—existed before Augustine. Many of the Church Fathers, including Origen and Clement of Alexandria, rejected literal millennialism well before Augustine. They saw the millennium in Revelation as symbolizing the present reign of Christ through the Church, a spiritual reign, not a future physical one.

    Furthermore, while some early Christians held millennial views (e.g., Papias and Justin Martyr), others, like Eusebius and Dionysius of Alexandria, strongly opposed it. Millennialism was not the universally accepted belief of the early Church but one of many competing interpretations of eschatology.

    Amillennialism, which sees the "1000 years" in Revelation 20 as symbolic, is not a denial of Christ's reign. Instead, it understands the "reign" of Christ as spiritual, beginning with His resurrection and continuing through His Church until His return at the end of history. Revelation, as apocalyptic literature, uses symbolic language extensively. For instance, the "1000 years" is interpreted symbolically to represent a complete period of time—a concept in line with biblical use of numbers for symbolic purposes.

    The idea that Christ's reign must be a literal, physical kingdom of 1000 years on earth contradicts the way Revelation and similar apocalyptic texts are generally understood. Revelation is filled with symbolic language: the numbers, beasts, and other imagery convey deeper spiritual truths rather than literal events.

    The critique of the Watchtower Society in the context of this argument is somewhat misplaced. While it is true that the Watchtower's timeline and theology of the 1914 invisible return of Christ are flawed, this has little bearing on the broader discussion between millennialism and amillennialism. In fact, most Christian groups, including the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and many Protestant denominations, reject the idea of an invisible return of Christ and hold that Christ will return visibly to judge the living and the dead (as stated in the Nicene Creed).

    Furthermore, the argument about "two-group salvation" is also misplaced in the broader Christian tradition. Most mainstream Christian denominations hold that salvation is through grace by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and do not divide believers into different classes with distinct destinies (e.g., 144,000 in heaven versus others on earth). Amillennialism emphasizes that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile—are one in Christ and that there is no distinction in salvation based on when one lived or their supposed role in a future millennium. The New Covenant is for all who are in Christ, uniting believers in the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

    The claim that "the apostles and early Christian leaders all taught a literal 1000-year Kingdom Reign" misrepresents early Christian diversity. For example, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, while millennialists, did not teach a uniformly accepted view. Their writings indicate that while they believed in a future physical reign of Christ on earth, this was not the only eschatological view. Others, such as Origen, opposed millennialism as too carnal and inconsistent with spiritual realities.

    Moreover, the assertion that early church leaders exclusively believed in a literal millennium ignores how allegorical interpretations flourished in the early Church, especially in Alexandria, where theologians like Origen and Clement favored symbolic readings of Scripture, including eschatological passages. They emphasized the spiritual reign of Christ and the present experience of God's Kingdom through the Church.

    Finally, the theological inconsistency in the premillennialist framework comes from the idea of a temporary earthly kingdom, followed by another resurrection and final judgment. The amillennial view maintains that Christ's return will mark the final judgment and the inauguration of the new heavens and new earth, as described in Revelation 21. This view is more consistent with the overall teaching of the New Testament, where Christ's second coming is described as the climax of history, not the beginning of a temporary earthly kingdom followed by another transition.

    While millennialism has been part of Christian eschatology, it is far from the only view. Amillennialism, with its symbolic interpretation of the millennium, better aligns with the apocalyptic genre of Revelation and is consistent with the overarching narrative of the New Testament, where Christ’s victory over sin and death is understood as an already-present reality, culminating in His final return and the establishment of the new creation.

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    (Matthew 20:28) "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

    (Luke 19:10) "For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.” (Exactly what did Adam lose???????)

    (1 Corinthians 15:22) "For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."

    (1 Corinthians 15:45) "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit."

    (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) "...Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all..." (that's exactly what a ransom does - it corresponds to what was lost, nothing more, nothing less)

    (Isaiah 9:6) "His name will be called...Eternal Father..." (replacing Adam and becoming mankind's "surrogate" lifegiver)

    Bottom line: No amount of Scriptural gymnastics or theological wishful thinking will get anyone into heaven. Adam never lost that hope or expectation for anyone, so no one can complain if they're upset at facing the same kind of life which all of Adam's descendants would have had - if he hadn't blown it.

    Jesus is the first & last - human to ever be resurrected to heaven.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    @Konagirl

    When it says "they walked with Jehovah during the breezy part of the day" what do you think that meant?

    When it says "they hid from the face of Jehovah" what do you think that meant?

  • Duran
  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Check out the context of Exodus 33:20 -


    Jehovah was already talking to Moses face-to-face. Jehovah was in a materialized body. Moses then asked Jehovah to see Jehovah's full heavenly glory, which was when God responded by saying it wasn't possible for a human to do.

    Obviously it was possible for a human do see God in a materialized human form, but that wasn't what Moses was asking about when God gave the answer at Exodus 33:20.

    Moses was talking to Jehovah face-to-face. Just like He did in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Same idea with the context of John 1:18.

    John spoke figuratively a lot. "In the beginning was the Word." Jesus is not literally a "word" just like he is not literally "light." John speaks figuratively.

    When John said "no man has seen God at any time" he then qualified that by saying Jesus is the one who explained what God is like in full heavenly glory. Jesus explained what God is like in His full heavenly glory. John learned from Jesus how to describe that heavenly glory: "God is love."


  • iloowy.goowy
    iloowy.goowy
    Moses was talking to Jehovah face-to-face. Just like He did in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve.

    @ FreeTheMasons, the Jehovah talking with Moses or with Abraham at the trees of Mamre was the Word, the Angel of Jehovah. Go read "Two Powers in Heaven" by Alan Segal, you can find it in Amazon.com and it has excellent points explaining this.

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