Sea Breeze, I would LOVE to be in a Bible study with you! I’m not being sarcastic, I mean it. 😇
Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly
by slimboyfat 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vanderhoven7
Biblically speaking, there is only one hope for Christians. And that hope is heavenly. There is no distinction among Christians, ancient or modern.
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aqwsed12345
@Sea Breeze
You claim that the Bible “overwhelmingly supports” a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, but a closer examination reveals that many of these references are symbolic or apocalyptic in nature. The Book of Revelation, where the “1,000-year reign” is specifically mentioned, is a highly symbolic text filled with visions and apocalyptic imagery, as even premillennialists acknowledge. The assertion that there are “over 1,800 Old Testament references to a literal kingdom” must be critically examined. Many of these references speak to the establishment of God’s reign, often using symbolic language to convey themes of divine sovereignty, judgment, and restoration, rather than providing a detailed description of a literal, future earthly kingdom. Isn't this exactly the same as when JWs simply claim that this and that New Testament verse "only" refers to "the anointed"?
Amillennialism is not a “left-over relic of the Catholic Church,” but rather a biblically grounded interpretation held by many respected theologians throughout Christian history, including prominent figures like Augustine, Calvin, and more modern theologians. I would like to note that you are so anti-Catholic that it is enough for you to reject a certain doctrine that it is also the Catholic teaching? Amillennialism recognizes the symbolic and apocalyptic nature of the book of Revelation, particularly the vision in Revelation 20. This interpretation sees Christ’s reign as already established through His resurrection, ascension, and ongoing rule in heaven, not a future earthly kingdom.
The Bible often uses symbolic language in prophetic and apocalyptic texts to convey deeper spiritual realities rather than strict historical timelines. The number 1,000 in Revelation 20, for example, is seen by many as symbolic of completeness and perfection rather than a literal number of years. Throughout Scripture, numbers like 7, 12, and 1,000 are used symbolically to represent fullness and completeness rather than literal periods (e.g., Deuteronomy 7:9, Psalm 50:10, 2 Peter 3:8).
Hence the amillennial interpretation simplyrecognizes this symbolic language. Augustine, one of the early proponents of amillennialism, rightly interpreted Revelation 20 as representing the present Church age, during which Christ reigns spiritually through His Church. The “binding” of Satan described in Revelation 20 refers to the limitation of Satan’s power to deceive the nations during this period, allowing the spread of the Gospel to all people.
The argument for premillennialism often emphasizes the fulfillment of God’s covenants with Israel, specifically the Abrahamic, Davidic, and Palestinian covenants. These covenants do promise a land, a kingdom, and blessings to Israel. However, amillennialists argue that these promises are ultimately fulfilled in Christ and His Church, which includes both Jews and Gentiles. As Paul explains in Romans 9–11, not all who are descended from Israel are part of the true Israel. The promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ, who is the true King and descendant of David.
You referenced the Abrahamic, Palestinian, and Davidic covenants, suggesting that their fulfillment depends on a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth. However, the New Testament provides a broader perspective on the fulfillment of these covenants. The promises made to Abraham, for example, are fulfilled through Christ (Galatians 3:16). Paul writes that Christ is the true seed of Abraham, and through faith in Him, believers from all nations become part of the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16).
Similarly, the Davidic covenant finds its ultimate fulfillment in Jesus Christ, who is now seated at the right hand of God, ruling over His people (Acts 2:29-36). His kingship is not limited to a future earthly reign but is exercised now as He reigns over His Church and the entire universe (Ephesians 1:20-23). This reign, according to amillennialism, is not limited to a specific future period but is ongoing until His final return when He will bring all things to their ultimate consummation.
In the New Testament, the land promises are expanded to encompass the entire world (Romans 4:13). The Church, made up of believers from every nation, has become the recipient of God’s promises. This is why Paul can say in Galatians 3:28-29 that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ, and that those who belong to Christ are heirs of the promises made to Abraham. Thus, the fulfillment of the covenants does not necessitate a future earthly reign limited to national Israel but is instead realized in the global reign of Christ through His Church.
The claim that the millennial reign “must” be interpreted literally is not supported by the overall context of apocalyptic literature. In Jewish apocalyptic literature, the number 1,000 is often used symbolically to represent completeness or perfection, rather than a literal period of time. Throughout Revelation, numbers have symbolic meanings (e.g., the number 7 representing perfection or completeness). The “1,000 years” in Revelation 20 should be understood as symbolic of the entire Church age—an indefinite period during which Christ reigns from heaven and Satan’s power is restricted.
You expressed concern about symbolic interpretations, suggesting they create theological “holes” that lead to confusion. While it’s true that apocalyptic literature can be challenging to interpret, it’s important to recognize that Scripture itself often uses symbolic language to describe spiritual realities. Consider Jesus’ own parables, which use symbolic language to describe the Kingdom of God.
Amillennialism views the events of Revelation 20 as symbolic of Christ’s victory over Satan through His death and resurrection. The “binding of Satan” represents the restraint of his power to deceive the nations as the gospel spreads throughout the world. This binding is not absolute, as Satan still influences the world, but it indicates that Christ has decisively triumphed over him (John 12:31; Colossians 2:15). The “first resurrection” in Revelation 20 is interpreted as the spiritual resurrection of believers, a participation in Christ’s resurrection through faith and baptism (Colossians 2:12; Ephesians 2:6).
Amillennialism asserts that we are currently living in this symbolic millennium. Christ is reigning now, as evidenced by His resurrection and ascension, and Satan’s influence, though still present, is limited by Christ’s authority. This interpretation aligns with passages such as Matthew 28:18, where Jesus declares, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Christ’s reign is a present reality, not something to be deferred to a future earthly kingdom. The Church Age began with Christ’s resurrection and will end with His second coming. During this period, Christ reigns from heaven, and His kingdom is advancing through the preaching of the gospel and the work of the Church. Satan is “bound” in the sense that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel or deceive the nations in the way he once did before Christ’s victory on the cross.
At the end of this present age, Christ will return, bringing the final judgment, the resurrection of the dead, and the renewal of all creation (Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 21-22). The emphasis in Scripture is not on a temporary, earthly kingdom but on the eternal reign of God in the new heavens and new earth, where all things will be made new.
The argument that denying a literal 1,000-year kingdom opens the door to theological errors like those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses misunderstands the broader symbolic nature of biblical prophecy. The JW doctrines distort key biblical teachings, particularly on the nature of Christ, the resurrection, and salvation. These distortions are not rooted in the amillennial interpretation of Scripture but in a broader misunderstanding of essential Christian doctrines. Theological cults like the JWs arise from a misreading of Scripture, not from amillennialism.
Moreover, it is important to recognize that amillennialism does not deny the future return of Christ or His final judgment. Instead, it emphasizes that Christ’s kingdom is both “already” and “not yet.” It is “already” present in the world through the Church, but its full manifestation will occur at Christ’s return when He ushers in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21). This is the culmination of God’s redemptive plan, where all believers will be united with Christ for eternity.
One of the challenges of premillennialism is the theological tension it creates with the New Testament’s teaching about Christ’s victory and the finality of His work. If Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension have already secured victory over sin, death, and Satan (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), why would there need to be a future, temporary earthly reign before the final judgment? Amillennialism resolves this by understanding Christ’s reign as spiritual and ongoing, with His final return ushering in the new creation rather than a temporary earthly kingdom.
Many premillennialists argue that a literal earthly kingdom is necessary for the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel. However, the New Testament frequently speaks of the Church as the fulfillment of Israel (Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9, 28-29). The distinction between Jews and Gentiles is abolished in Christ, who has made one new people of God from all nations (Ephesians 2:14-16). Thus, the promises made to Israel are being fulfilled in the Church, which includes both Jews and Gentiles who trust in Christ.
Your concerns about the dangers of amillennialism allowing false teachings like those of the JWs to flourish are understandable. However, false teachings arise when Scripture is misinterpreted or distorted. It’s not the amillennial view itself that leads to error, but rather a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s kingdom and the application of biblical prophecy. The antidote to false teaching is careful, faithful interpretation of Scripture, grounded in the historical and theological context of the Bible as a whole.
Amillennialism offers a theologically coherent and biblically grounded interpretation of Scripture. It avoids the pitfalls of overly literal readings of apocalyptic texts and instead seeks to understand the deeper spiritual realities they convey. This interpretation is consistent with the broader witness of Scripture, which presents Christ’s kingdom as spiritual, not earthly, and His reign as extending over the hearts of believers throughout history.
In conclusion, the literalist approach to the millennium often overlooks the rich symbolism of biblical prophecy and fails to recognize the ways in which Christ is already reigning through His Church. Amillennialism provides a balanced and consistent interpretation of Scripture that affirms Christ’s current reign and looks forward to the final consummation of His kingdom at the end of the age, and emphasizes the eternal nature of Christ’s kingdom, rather than a temporary earthly reign, and highlights the spiritual realities of the present age in which Christ is already King and we, as believers, are already participating in His kingdom.
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Konagirl
@FreetheMasons - Why is it so impossible to you that God would want to hang out with His own kids?
Why do you think it's impossible for the One who made the universe and everything in it to make a body to be able to visit the earth?
What do you think "God is love" really means?
Why do you overcomplicate everything?
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exod 3:14
Among the children of Israel, God did not walk with His children in the flesh, but He was with them in spirit.
“And let them make Me a SANCTUARY (tabernacle, holy place, temple), that I may DWELL among them. 9 According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.” Exod 25:8-9
That “pattern of the tabernacle” is heavenly, and explained in Hebrews 8:4-5 That is the template for the heavenly dwelling place of God in the Kingdom.
“To whom then will YOU liken God?
Or what likeness will YOU compare to Him?” Isa 40:18“To whom will YOU liken Me, and make Me equal
And compare Me, THAT WE SHOULD BE ALIKE?” Isa 46:5Do we dare compare God to a human? Should we wish for such a thing?
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Num 23:19“For My thoughts are not YOUR thoughts,
Nor are YOUR ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than YOUR ways,
And My thoughts than YOUR thoughts. Isa 55:8-9God will be with His future children in spirit.
“Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.” Rev 21:2-3
Another sacred dwelling place where God will reside in spirit; this time in the hearts of those God has chosen as His “temple” to serve the needs of all His children in the Kingdom. 1 Pet 2:4-10; 1 Cor 3:16-17; 1 Cor 6:19-20; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 1:5-6; Rev 3:12; 7:15; 21:22-24
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Sea Breeze
Biblically speaking, there is only one hope for Christians. And that hope is heavenly.
@Vanderhoven
That is the hope for Christian believers, yes - during the church-age. Paul wrote to be "absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".
But during the Millennial Reign, the earth will be populated with Jews and Non-Jews - All Great Tribulation Survivors, and later their children.
The Judgment of the Nations will be the first Judicial proceedings from King Jesus as he sits on his throne in Jerusalem. It will determine which of the Tribulation Survivors get in and which ones do not.
Luke 19 27 - But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”
These slain ones will go to hades after they are slain to await the final Judgment at the Great White Throne after the thousand years have ended when there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.
The people who are all good with Jesus being King are allowed to enter his Thousand Year Reign.
Untimately we all end up in eternity after the Great White Throne Judgment where the entire universe is rolled up like a scroll and the whole universe is recreated again.
This is the new heavens and new earth referred to several times in scripture.
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Rattigan350
" Revelation indicates a great crowd in heaven that rules as kings and priests for a thousand years and 144,000 ruling as kings forever from New Jerusalem on earth."
No. That great crowd seen in Rev 19 is a general term. It is not the same as the ones in Rev 7.
The 144,000 do not rule on earth.
Heb 12:22 says heavenly Jerusalem were Jesus and the 144,000 rule.
Jesus said his kingdom is no part of the world. That is because it is heavenly.
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Rattigan350
There are not two destinies.
Those that get resurrected to heaven do that to do a job. It is work, not a destiny. They do not sit on clouds to play harps with Jesus.
I will explain it in simple terms.
Ex 19:5,6 "Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
Jer 31:31 "“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant"
1 Peter 2:9 "But you are “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession," has him calling the Christians, Israel. The ones with the new covenant.Rev 5:10 and 20:6 tells us that the first resurrection is of those ones that rule with Jesus in the heavens who will be kings and priests with him.
Kings and priests were anointed with oil as a sign of their being chosen for that job. Kings and priests with the new covenant are anointed with holy spirit as a sign or token of their being chosen for that job.
Rev 7 tells us that 12,000 out of 12 tribes is the total number of Israel of the spirit; the ones that Peter mentioned. The covenant having been transferred from physical Israel to spiritual Israel.
It's that simple.
So forget about "absent from the body is presence with the Lord". It does not fit the formula.
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aqwsed12345
@Rattigan350
The claim that the great crowd in Revelation 19 is distinct from the great crowd in Revelation 7, and that the 144,000 do not rule on earth, is based on a selective interpretation of the Scriptures and a misunderstanding of the biblical language and imagery used in Revelation. The passage in Revelation 7:9 describes a "great crowd" from every nation, tribe, and language standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes. This scene is clearly a heavenly vision, as they are described as being "before the throne" of God, which is in heaven, not on earth. The imagery of standing before the throne and the Lamb indicates a heavenly presence, not a mere earthly existence.
Revelation 19 also mentions a "great multitude" that rejoices in heaven during the marriage of the Lamb, which is again a heavenly context. The attempt to separate these two crowds as entirely different groups is not supported by the text. The "great crowd" in both chapters appears in heavenly scenes, indicating that these are not two distinct groups, but rather one unified group of redeemed people in God's presence.
The claim that the 144,000 do not rule on earth but only in heaven is a misinterpretation of Revelation 5:10 and Revelation 20:6, which say that those who take part in the first resurrection will reign with Christ as kings and priests. It is important to note that biblical imagery often blends heaven and earth, especially when describing God's kingdom and reign. Revelation 5:10 says that these individuals "will reign on the earth," (the NWT mistranslates: "over the earth") indicating that their rule has an earthly dimension. The idea of a dichotomy between heaven and earth in their reign is artificial and unsupported by the broader biblical narrative.
Hebrews 12:22, which mentions "heavenly Jerusalem," does not exclude an earthly reign. Rather, it emphasizes the heavenly origin of the authority of the 144,000 and Christ. Their reign can have heavenly authority while being exercised over the earth.
The argument that Jesus’ kingdom is "not of this world" (based on John 18:36, the NWT mistranslates “no part of” etc.) is taken out of context. When Jesus says this, He is emphasizing that His kingdom is not established by earthly political power or worldly means. This does not mean that His kingdom has no effect on the earth or that it will only be a heavenly kingdom. The Lord’s Prayer in Matthew 6:10 clearly teaches us to pray, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This indicates that God’s kingdom will have a direct impact on the earth, fulfilling His purpose for creation.
The statement about kings and priests being anointed with the Holy Spirit for a job is correct but is misapplied here. The kings and priests in Revelation 5:10 and Revelation 20:6 are anointed not only to rule but also to serve. This service is not confined to heaven but extends to the earth, as Revelation 5:10 explicitly states they "will reign on the earth." The anointing with the Holy Spirit empowers them for a role that bridges heaven and earth, exercising dominion under Christ’s authority.
While Revelation 7 does describe the sealing of 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, this does not mean that only these individuals have a special heavenly or spiritual status. The New Testament frequently uses the term "Israel" in a spiritual sense to refer to all believers, both Jews and Gentiles, who are united in Christ (see Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 6:16). The 144,000 is likely a symbolic number representing the fullness of God’s people rather than a literal group. This interpretation fits the apocalyptic and symbolic nature of Revelation, where numbers often carry theological significance rather than literal precision.
Finally, the dismissal of 2 Corinthians 5:8 ("absent from the body, present with the Lord") as not fitting the formula is problematic. This verse, along with others such as Philippians 1:23, clearly speaks of a hope for immediate presence with the Lord after death for believers. It affirms the hope of all believers, not just a select few, to be with Christ. This further challenges the Jehovah’s Witnesses' two-class theology, as it indicates that all who die in Christ are present with Him, without any artificial distinction between different groups.
The idea that the 144,000 are exclusively in heaven while the great crowd remains on earth is a misinterpretation of the Scriptures. The Bible teaches that all believers, whether part of the "great crowd" or the "144,000," share in the same hope of eternal life and reign with Christ, both in heaven and on the renewed earth. God's kingdom will be fully realized when heaven and earth are united, with Christ reigning over all. The two-class theology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is not supported by the biblical text, which emphasizes the unity of all believers in Christ and their shared inheritance in God's kingdom.
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Rattigan350
aqwsed
"This scene is clearly a heavenly vision, as they are described as being "before the throne" of God, which is in heaven, not on earth."
Being before the throne has nothing to do with location.
"This verse, along with others such as Philippians 1:23, clearly speaks of a hope for immediate presence with the Lord after death for believers. It affirms the hope of all believers, not just a select few, to be with Christ. "
The reason for being resurrection to heaven is not to be with Jesus. That is what pastors teach to get people to come to their churches. The only immediate presence with Jesus after death is for after Jesus becomes king and their resurrection is instant and they don't sleep in death.
Prior they slept in death waiting.
You shouldn't look at what this or that scripture says and what the translations say.
Look at the mechanics of how things work:
There is no reason for more than 144,000 to be in heaven.
There is no reason for anyone ruling to be on earth. Ruling on earth has no power. It can't accomplish what is needed to accomplish, i.e. resurrect billions and judge them.
Jesus said his kingdom was no part of this world. That is because it would rule from heaven, not from this world.
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aqwsed12345
@Rattigan350
Being "before the throne" is indeed a specific reference to the heavenly setting in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 7:9 describes the "great crowd" standing "before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes." In the apocalyptic imagery of Revelation, the throne of God is consistently depicted as being in heaven, not on earth. This is clearly laid out in Revelation 4:2-3, where John describes seeing "a throne set in heaven." Therefore, "before the throne" indicates a heavenly scene, and not an earthly one, confirming that the great crowd is in heaven. This directly challenges the Jehovah's Witnesses' teaching that the great crowd remains on earth.
Historically, the JW organization originally interpreted the "great crowd" as a heavenly group. However, starting in the 1930s, the doctrine shifted to place the "great crowd" as an earthly group, distinct from the 144,000 anointed Christians who rule with Christ in heaven. This interpretation is foundational to their two-class theology, which separates those destined for heaven from those who will remain on earth. Jon Mitchell emphasizes the importance of accurately interpreting terms like naos (temple) and enopion (before the throne) in Revelation. The JW interpretation relies on differentiating between heavenly and earthly service to God, but some of the theological and linguistic arguments presented question the validity of separating the "great crowd" from the heavenly context found in the text. Mitchell, a former member of the JW Governing Body, outlines concerns about the doctrinal shift regarding the "great crowd" and its service to God. He highlights inconsistencies in JW interpretations of Revelation, particularly the way they apply biblical terms differently in various contexts to support their unique doctrine.
The New Testament, particularly Paul's writings, emphasizes the hope of being with Christ after death. In Philippians 1:23, Paul explicitly says, "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far." Similarly, 2 Corinthians 5:8 states, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." These verses show that being with Christ is a central aspect of the Christian hope after death. The idea that the resurrection to heaven is "not to be with Jesus" is in direct contradiction to these clear biblical statements. The purpose of the resurrection is not merely functional, as the Jehovah's Witnesses suggest (i.e., for ruling), but relational—being with Christ in eternal fellowship is paramount.
The limitation of 144,000 to a literal number is a symbolic interpretation, not a literal one. Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers (e.g., 7 represents completeness, 12 represents God’s people, etc.). The 144,000 in Revelation 7:4-8 represents the fullness of God’s people, from all tribes of Israel, and is likely symbolic of the entire Church. Moreover, immediately after the mention of the 144,000, Revelation 7:9 speaks of "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne." This "great crowd" is part of the redeemed in heaven, not separate. The attempt to restrict heaven to 144,000 people contradicts the inclusive nature of salvation as depicted throughout the New Testament (e.g., Romans 10:12-13, Galatians 3:28).
The phrase "no part of this world" (John 18:36) is mistranslated in the New World Translation (NWT). The accurate translation from the Greek is "My kingdom is not from/of this world," meaning that Christ's kingdom does not derive its authority from worldly powers or human institutions, but from God. This does not imply that Christ's kingdom has no impact on the world. Jesus clearly instructs His disciples to pray for God’s kingdom to come "on earth as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). This suggests that while the kingdom originates in heaven, it will also transform the earth. Revelation 21:1-3 shows the union of heaven and earth in the New Jerusalem, where God will dwell with His people. The claim that Jesus’ kingdom "rules from heaven" without affecting the earth misunderstands the scope of the kingdom, which includes the transformation and renewal of creation.
The argument that the resurrected "do a job" in heaven and that heaven is not a destiny reflects a functional misunderstanding of the biblical vision of heaven. The New Testament depicts the resurrected saints as both rulers and worshipers in heaven. Revelation 5:9-10 indicates that the saints will "reign on the earth" as part of their role in God's kingdom. However, their ultimate destiny is not just to "work," but to enjoy eternal life in the presence of God. The idea that the resurrected merely have "jobs" in heaven diminishes the grandeur of what the Bible describes as eternal communion with God, the ultimate fulfillment of Christian hope (Revelation 21:3-4).
Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The New Testament, particularly Hebrews 8, reveals that this new covenant was fulfilled through Christ and is extended to all believers, not just ethnic Israel. Galatians 3:28-29 makes it clear that "there is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." The concept of "spiritual Israel" includes both Jews and Gentiles who are united in Christ under the new covenant. The Jehovah's Witnesses' separation of this covenant to apply only to a select group (144,000) contradicts the inclusive nature of the gospel message.
The Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the 144,000 and the great crowd is built on selective readings of Scripture and symbolic passages taken out of context. The Bible consistently teaches that the hope of resurrection, being with Christ, and ruling with Him is extended to all believers. The distinctions made between the 144,000 and the great crowd do not hold up under careful examination of the biblical text, and the mistranslation of key passages in the NWT distorts the full biblical narrative of God's kingdom and the role of believers within it.