"Do JW's and Born-Again Christians have something in common?

by jads 57 Replies latest jw friends

RAYZORBLADE

JWs and Born-Again Christians: their beliefs in the realm of fundamentalism may appear different, but their rhetoric:
the same
My karma ran over my dogma!
UnDisfellowshipped

FunkyDerek said:
Undisfellowshipped:

(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The requirements to "join this club" and become a Christian and be saved? (End of Quote)
When you say saved, I assume you mean saved from "sin", which apparently happened when our ancestors broke one of your god's laws. Their punishment was that all their descendants would be born worthy of eternal torture. Unless that is, they do the following...
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 1: Repent of your sins and believe with all your heart that the Jesus Christ of the Bible is your Lord and Savior, and that He died for you. (End of Quote)
Now that's what I have a problem with. The requirement is just to believe. That's all. Should be easy, right? Believe, and abracadabra, you're saved. So why can't i do it? Tell you what, if you don't believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUH) I'm going to kill you. Do you believe now? No? I'll give you a hundred dollars if you believe. No? Oh go on, it's not that hard.
Yes, I'm talking about being saved from the punishment for your sins. I do not (and God doesn't) want anyone to believe with blind faith or credulity. You should do studying, research, examination of facts, and prayer, and then, make an informed decision about what you believe as being truth. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 2: Doing good works cannot save anyone. No amount of good works can save anyone at all. Only the shed Blood of Jesus can save you. Jesus has already done EVERYTHING for you -- the only thing left is for you to BELIEVE in Him. (End of Quote)
So if I was somehow able to short-circuit my brain (yes, brain - that's what people actually believe things with, not the heart) into believing your particular brand of superstition then I could do anything and still be saved? Brilliant. Now if only I was stupid enough to believe in something without evidence.
But you see, according to the Bible, IF you have truly been Saved and Born Again by the Holy Spirit, you WILL NOT practice wicked sins. You may still make mistakes, sins, and errors, but you will not intentionally practice evil IF you have truly been Born Again and Saved. FunkyDerek said:
But wait, apparently that's not all I need to do. There's more:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Commandments to follow: (End of Quote)
Isn't following commandments a "work"? Is your religion works-based after all? What happened to "salvation by faith alone"? Anyway, let's see what God really wants:
As I said before, you CANNOT be saved by doing ANY "good works", NOT EVEN these Commandments. Born Again Christians follow these Commandments BECAUSE they have already been Saved, and have love for God, NOT in order to get Saved. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 1: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul. (End of Quote)
So God commands our love? All but the most naive among us know that you can't force somebody to love you. (Many of us have learnt the hard way). What if we manage to believe in the existence of your god, but can't shake the notion that he's a bloodthirsty tyrant? If your god existed, I would be terrified of him, but that wouldn't make me love him.
FunkyDerek, think about this: If the Almighty and All-Powerful God wanted to force people to love Him, HE WOULD ALREADY BE FORCING EVERYONE TO LOVE HIM. But He has NOT done that. God respects each and every person's right to choose what he is going to do. There are consequences for making the wrong decisions, just like there are consequences in our Country if you were to choose to murder someone. God does desire that we will love Him, but He forces no one to love Him. God loves us so much that He came to earth and died for us. 2nd Peter 3:8-9: But in this let it not escape your notice, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord does not delay concerning His promise, as some reckon slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Now, notice what that says. If God wanted to, He could FORCE everyone to repent, but no, instead he respects everyone's right to CHOOSE. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 2: Love your neighbor as yourself. (End of Quote)
Not a bad commandment. One of the better ones, certainly. I'm not sure about the "as yourself" bit, though. My own life and the lives of those I care about will always be more important to me than those of my "neighbours".
Well, that was the point Jesus was making -- everyone on earth is falling way short on loving your neighbor as yourself, because everyone is a sinful imperfect person. Jesus was telling us what we should do. The word "neighbor" refers to anyone on earth who needs our help. Just read the "Good Samaritan" story to find out what Jesus meant. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 3: Do to others what you want them to do to you. (End of Quote)
An excellent rule, which is why it occurs in many religions and moral philosophies. Personally I prefer the Confucian version "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you." It avoids the problem of know-it-all do-gooders interfering in other people's business.
In my opinion, Confucian's version is definitely inferior, and let me explain why I believe so: Under Confucian's version, it would simply mean that if you saw a Samaritan walking by, you should not beat him up and take his money. Under Jesus' version, it would mean that if you saw a Samaritan beat up lying on the ground, you would help him all you could, you would take him to a hotel, and pay for his hotel room. It is Jesus Christ's version that the New York City Firefighters followed when they gave their lives to save people from the World Trade Center. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 4: Love your enemies. (End of Quote)
No, not a chance. I try to avoid having enemies. Any enemies I have, I have for a reason. I will not sully the emotion of love by pretending to apply it to people I hate. I can no more love someone I hate than I can believe in your god and his silly rules.
Well, most people do try to avoid having enemies. But, sometimes, people are your enemies without any fault on your part. That is the difference between Bible-based Christianity, and other religions. You see, I do not hate anyone on earth. I have love for everyone. However, I do admit that I do not love some people as much as I love others. Let me ask a question -- if you saw one of your "enemies" with his car flipped over, and he was unconscious, lying on the ground, would you help him out? Would you call the police or ambulance for him? If you would do that, then that would be a form of showing love for your enemies. FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) 5: Pray to God and read the Bible everyday. (End of Quote)
It always amazed me why God seemed to require prayer when he supposedly knows what we are thinking anyway. Why, when he knows what we want and need does he require us to beg for it, and often ignore us anyway? As for reading the Bible, if you do that every day and remember what you read and research and study it, how could you possibly continue in the belief that it was written by the Almighty Creator of the universe?
Have you ever thought about this: God loves you so much, that He just loves to hear you talking to Him? He already knows everything you need, and everything you are going to ask, but He loves to hear His children talk to Him. A human father (should) loves talking to his children, even if he knows what they are going to say. God has only promised to answer the prayers that are in harmony with His Will. I encourage you to study and do research into the Bible, and into Jesus Christ, and then make an informed decision about what to believe.
UnDisfellowshipped

FunkyDerek said:
When you say saved, I assume you mean saved from "sin", which apparently happened when our ancestors broke one of your god's laws. Their punishment was that all their descendants would be born worthy of eternal torture.
I believe that God is All-Wise, All-Just, All-Holy, All-Loving -- He sets the standard for Justice (right and wrong).
God has determined that everyone who sins (regardless of the reasons why they sin) must be punished by being eternally separated from the All-Holy, Sinless God.
funkyderek

I believe that God is All-Wise, All-Just, All-Holy, All-Loving -- He sets the standard for Justice (right and wrong).
God has determined that everyone who sins (regardless of the reasons why they sin) must be punished by being eternally separated from the All-Holy, Sinless God.

But why if he's "All-Loving" and he "sets the standard for Justice" did he set such a strange and arbitrary standard, one that most people will never fulfill? Instead of requiring belief in a fairy tale as a means to salvation, why couldn't God just require people to be nice? If you're a nice person, you're saved. If you're not nice, you're not saved. It certainly seems fairer to me.
I still can't get around the notion that the requirement for salvation is just belief. In your religion the devil believes in your God and everything he did - after all, he was there (see James 2:19). Is he saved by this belief? Isn't it possible for someone to believe your religion is true and still reject it? I for one wouldn't serve your god, even if I believed in him.
Why didn't he make things clearer? If the only requirement is to believe, then why did your god make his message so confusing? Now you may argue that it's actually a very simple message but your interpretation of it differs vastly from other people's. Half the world believes in your god. Two thirds of them believe that Jesus of Galilee was him/his son. Most of the rest believe wholeheartedly in other deities. In their myriad different beliefs and interpretations, they're all as sincere as you, many willing to die (or even kill) for their beliefs. They all feel they have as much evidence for their beliefs as you feel you have for yours. Why is it loving of your god to make just one kind of belief in one of these deities the only way to be saved from a problem he created? Why should someone have the inside track just because they happened to be born in a Christian country?
UnDisfellowshipped

Hello FunkyDerek,
I do want to thank you for your comments. I do truly enjoy having conversations with people on this Website, no matter they believe.
I also enjoy hearing about other people's beliefs, and I hope to better understand what everyone believes on this Website.
I also do not mind at all hearing other people's questions, concerns, and doubts about Christianity, God, the Bible, etc. Afterall, if my religion, and my beliefs are true, then they will stand up against anything. And if not, then I definitely want to know.
FunkyDerek, you said:
But why if he's "All-Loving" and he "sets the standard for Justice" did he set such a strange and arbitrary standard, one that most people will never fulfill? Instead of requiring belief in a fairy tale as a means to salvation, why couldn't God just require people to be nice? If you're a nice person, you're saved. If you're not nice, you're not saved. It certainly seems fairer to me.
Well, to be entirely honest, I do not fully understand everything God does or does not do.
According to the Bible, the All-Holy and All-Sinless God cannot allow sin into His presence or to go un-punished.
However, God the Son loved people so much, even though they are fallen, sinful, imperfect creatures, that He came to earth as Jesus Christ, and God the Father placed ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) into Jesus Christ's Body on the Cross, and then Jesus Christ suffered the punishment for our sins, and sacrificed Himself and shed His Blood to pay the penalty that all of us deserve.
On the Cross, God imputed all of our sins into Jesus, and then punished Jesus for our sins.
But, even though Jesus suffered and paid the penalty for every person's sin, God does not automatically save everyone on earth.
God says that, in order to be saved, you must believe with all your mind and heart that Jesus Christ died for you personally, and paid the penalty for you, in your place.
If you were the only person on earth, Jesus would have still come to earth and died for you personally, because He loves you that much.
Now, whenever someone repents and believes in Jesus, God instantly imputes the righteousness and holiness of Jesus onto that person, and in God's eyes, that person's sins are eternally forgiven and washed away forever.
But, if it was true that people are saved because of being "nice enough", you would have to have an exact chart of how nice you have to be in order to be saved and how not nice you have to be in order to not be saved.
Also, religions and cults definitely take advantage of the belief that you must do "good works" in order to be saved. Just look at the JW's -- they teach that you can never be sure that you have done enough "good works" to be saved.
To me, it seems that "believe and be saved" is much easier than "do enough good works" and be saved, or "be nice enough and be saved".
Actually when you think about it -- if a human was making up his own religion, and he wanted followers, or he wanted people to join a church or club, then a human WOULD NOT have created a religion where people are saved through FAITH, and not by any good works. That would have been counter-productive to starting your own religion simply to get followers.
I'll try to comment more on this soon.
FunkyDerek said:
I still can't get around the notion that the requirement for salvation is just belief. In your religion the devil believes in your God and everything he did - after all, he was there (see James 2:19). Is he saved by this belief? Isn't it possible for someone to believe your religion is true and still reject it? I for one wouldn't serve your god, even if I believed in him.
Very good questions that I have never been asked before.
James 2:19: You believe God is One. You do well. Even the demons believe--and they shudder!
The reasons why Satan and the demons cannot be saved, is because they committed the unforgivable sin.
Notice:
2nd Peter 2:4: For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but rather confined them to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6: And the angels who did not keep their own domain, but rather having left their own habitation, He has kept with everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Also, Satan and the demons do not put FAITH in God the Father and Jesus, but they do believe that God and Jesus exist.
Satan and the demons HATE God the Father and Jesus.
The Bible shows that a person must believe with all his mind and heart that Jesus died for him, and REPENT.
"Repent" means that you change your attitude towards sin -- it means that you HATE sin, and you HATE the sins that you did in the past, and that you will try not to sin anymore.
The Bible also states that you must be Born Again by the Holy Spirit -- which means that The Holy Spirit comes into your heart, and The Holy Spirit then regenerates you, and causes you to have more love for God and people.
In order to have saving faith and belief in God and Jesus, you would have to have love for God and Jesus and appreciation for Jesus' Sacrifice.
Basically, it does no good to simply believe that God and Jesus exist -- unless you have faith and love in God and Jesus for your salvation.
I hope I explained things clearly.
FunkyDerek said:
Why didn't he make things clearer? If the only requirement is to believe, then why did your god make his message so confusing? Now you may argue that it's actually a very simple message but your interpretation of it differs vastly from other people's.
I can definitely understand why you feel that way.
Yes, it is true that there are LOTS of different interpretations of the Bible, and what must be done for salvation.
However, these are the Scriptures in the New Testament that are the basis for my belief on salvation by GRACE through FAITH:
John 3:16-18: For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the Only Begotten Son of God.
John 6:28-29: Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Acts 16:30-31: and he brought them forth outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Romans 3:20-28: Therefore by works of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the Law has been revealed, being witnessed to by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all those that believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a Propitiation through faith in His Blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins having previously occurred, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, that He might be Just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.
Romans 4:2-9: For if Abraham was justified by works, he has grounds for boasting, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the reward is not accounted according to grace but according to debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God accounts righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins were covered over; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall by no means impute sin." Does this blessing then come upon the circumcision, or also upon the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
Galatians 2:16: knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; because no flesh shall be justified by the works of the Law.
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FunkyDerek said:
Half the world believes in your god. Two thirds of them believe that Jesus of Galilee was him/his son. Most of the rest believe wholeheartedly in other deities. In their myriad different beliefs and interpretations, they're all as sincere as you, many willing to die (or even kill) for their beliefs. They all feel they have as much evidence for their beliefs as you feel you have for yours. Why is it loving of your god to make just one kind of belief in one of these deities the only way to be saved from a problem he created? Why should someone have the inside track just because they happened to be born in a Christian country?
First of all, according to the Bible, it is not "belief in one of these deities", it is belief in the Only True Deity.
I personally would definitely not ever say that God created our problems. I believe that our problems are caused by Satan and Adam and Eve's sin and rebellion against God.
About the "being born in a Christian country" issue:
Christianity began in Israel and Palestine, and Rome, and Greece, it spread out through the entire world.
Why do you think Jesus Christ gave this Commandment?:
Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and look, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
The latest TIME Magazine shows that Christians are trying to go to Muslim countries and preach about Christ. But, it is extremely difficult, because if they are found out, they can be tortured or killed.
I am pretty sure that there are Christians preaching about Christ in every single nation on earth.
If someone truly wants to find the True God, and prays and asks for help, then I believe with all my heart that God will lead that person to Christ, no matter where on earth he lives.
funkyderek

I do want to thank you for your comments. I do truly enjoy having conversations with people on this Website, no matter they believe.
I also enjoy hearing about other people's beliefs, and I hope to better understand what everyone believes on this Website.

I also do not mind at all hearing other people's questions, concerns, and doubts about Christianity, God, the Bible, etc. Afterall, if my religion, and my beliefs are true, then they will stand up against anything. And if not, then I definitely want to know.

I wholeheartedly share and support those sentiments. On that note...
According to the Bible, the All-Holy and All-Sinless God cannot allow sin into His presence or to go un-punished.
But he invented the concept of sin, then allowed Adam and Eve to be tricked into sinning, when they did not know right from wrong (knowledge which God had deliberately withheld from them). He then decreed that all their descendants would be punished for this one sin. They ate one piece of fruit and billions of people suffer for thousands of years as a result. Could the "All-Holy and All-Sinless God" not have thought up fairer rules?
However, God the Son loved people so much, even though they are fallen, sinful, imperfect creatures, that He came to earth as Jesus Christ, and God the Father placed ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) into Jesus Christ's Body on the Cross, and then Jesus Christ suffered the punishment for our sins, and sacrificed Himself and shed His Blood to pay the penalty that all of us deserve.
If you take away the cultural background of this belief, it makes absolutely no sense at all. God was unable to forgive sin, despite people being repentant. He was unable to return humans to the sinless state in which he had originally created them. The only thing he could do was commit some form of ritual murder/suicide in order to cancel a debt that he had decreed we owed to him. There's absolutely no logic behind it. But it gets worse:
On the Cross, God imputed all of our sins into Jesus, and then punished Jesus for our sins.
This only works if you accept the strange initial conditions above, but OK, I'll go along with it. The sin gets removed from humans, and is taken by Jesus. He is then punished in order to satisfy his own (sort of, the Trinity makes this even more confusing) sense of justice. OK, so sin is then removed from everyone forever, right?
But, even though Jesus suffered and paid the penalty for every person's sin, God does not automatically save everyone on earth.
Apparently not. So how do we avail of this one-time only offer?
God says that, in order to be saved, you must believe with all your mind and heart that Jesus Christ died for you personally, and paid the penalty for you, in your place.
More inexplicable conditions. Why does God keep making arbitrary rules that will result in the eternal damnation of some people. Why couldn't he save everybody? We don't have to believe in sin - or it's origins - in order to be punished for it. Why do we have to believe the penalty has been paid in order for it to be paid?
If you were the only person on earth, Jesus would have still come to earth and died for you personally, because He loves you that much.
But he's still willing to let me die (and/or suffer eternally), simply because I'm skeptical? It doesn't seem very loving. Couldn't he have made something other than belief a requirement?
Now, whenever someone repents and believes in Jesus, God instantly imputes the righteousness and holiness of Jesus onto that person, and in God's eyes, that person's sins are eternally forgiven and washed away forever.
So, despite sin being a failure to do what is right, all attempts to atone for that by doing what is right are for nothing, unless you can believe the strange scenario described above.
But, if it was true that people are saved because of being "nice enough", you would have to have an exact chart of how nice you have to be in order to be saved and how not nice you have to be in order to not be saved.
That doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. It's the basis of most legal systems. If you do this, you will be punished. If your crime is not too severe, you can atone for it by doing good works (community service.) Imagine, if instead, legal systems worked the way your god does. There's a high crime rate, so the president (or vice-president, or president's son, whatever works for you) disguises himself and goes down a dark alleyway where he is mugged or beaten up. He has this story published anonymously in a handful of local newspapers and orders that any prisoners who read and believe the story should be released from prison. That's the closest I can get to an analogy of your belief system and it's clearly completely absurd. I can't see how you think that's fair. Or are there any major flaws in my analogy? What am I missing?
Also, religions and cults definitely take advantage of the belief that you must do "good works" in order to be saved. Just look at the JW's -- they teach that you can never be sure that you have done enough "good works" to be saved.
True, but many other cults require their followers simply to believe strange things. Heaven's Gate comes to mind.
To me, it seems that "believe and be saved" is much easier than "do enough good works" and be saved, or "be nice enough and be saved".
Certainly it seems easier. But "do nothing and be saved" seems easier still. It doesn't seem very fair though.
Actually when you think about it -- if a human was making up his own religion, and he wanted followers, or he wanted people to join a church or club, then a human WOULD NOT have created a religion where people are saved through FAITH, and not by any good works. That would have been counter-productive to starting your own religion simply to get followers.
Religions don't have to start that way in order to spread. The only requirement is that they are good at spreading.Yours is certainly good at spreading, although not currently the best. Salvation by faith is of course a relatively new twist to Christianity but has certainly spread rapidly.
John 3:16-18: For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the Only Begotten Son of God.
I understand that's the basis of your belief system. What I still don't understand is why you think it makes sense. Why is someone condemned for not believing? "Because he has not believed".
Why, for centuries, did God require rigid adherence to a complicated legal code, only to suddenly abolish this without warning or precedent? Israelites who believed were often smitten by God for breaking one of his laws. Why?
Other scriptures seem to contradict the ones you quoted, or at least your interpretaion of them.
For example:
Matthew 5:17-20: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do this will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus then goes on to list the ways people must behave to avoid damnation. (v.27-48) Jesus constantly emphasised doing the will of his father
Matthew 7:14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven, only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!'
This seems to directly contradict your belief that everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved. According to this, belief was not enough if they did not keep the law.
Matthew 13:41: The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers
This is part of the "Parable of the Weeds". It is "lawbreakers" who will be punished, not unbelievers.
Matthew 19:16-19: Now a man came up to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?" He said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false witness, honor your father and mother and love your neighbor as yourself."
I'm not going to trawl through all the gospels for quotes, but Jesus constantly emphasised keeping the commandments and obeying the law. Why, if belief was the only requirement for salvation?
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First of all, according to the Bible, it is not "belief in one of these deities", it is belief in the Only True Deity.
That's what I meant, that out of all the deities that people believe in, the requirement for salvation is belief in just one particular deity,the "Only True" one according to you.
I personally would definitely not ever say that God created our problems. I believe that our problems are caused by Satan and Adam and Eve's sin and rebellion against God.
But God created them, and he set up the initial conditions and made up all the rules - and lied to Adam and Eve about the consequences, and decided to punish every human born since for their one minor transgression.
The latest TIME Magazine shows that Christians are trying to go to Muslim countries and preach about Christ. But, it is extremely difficult, because if they are found out, they can be tortured or killed.
So it's therefore very difficult for a Muslim in such a country to hear about Christ at all. Far easier for someone born into a Christian family in a Christian country.
I am pretty sure that there are Christians preaching about Christ in every single nation on earth.
Possibly, but many countries are huge, and have very few Christians.
If someone truly wants to find the True God, and prays and asks for help, then I believe with all my heart that God will lead that person to Christ, no matter where on earth he lives.
But it must be the case that some people live their entire lives without ever hearing about your god, no matter how sincere they are. For example, Australian aborigines, before the arrival of Captain Cook, had no way to hear about Christianity, no matter how sincerely they prayed to their gods for help. 1700 years, thousands upon thousands of people who never got the chance to hear about your god, and his bizarre requirements. What will be their fate?
UnDisfellowshipped

Hi FunkyDerek,
I want to say that this is the best conversation about the Bible that I have had on this Website in quite a while. You have asked some extremely good questions, and I encourage everyone to ask tough questions.
Proverbs 14:15: A simple man believes everything, But the prudent man carefully considers his ways.
FunkyDerek said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) According to the Bible, the All-Holy and All-Sinless God cannot allow sin into His presence or to go un-punished. (End of Quote)
But he invented the concept of sin, then allowed Adam and Eve to be tricked into sinning, when they did not know right from wrong (knowledge which God had deliberately withheld from them). He then decreed that all their descendants would be punished for this one sin. They ate one piece of fruit and billions of people suffer for thousands of years as a result. Could the "All-Holy and All-Sinless God" not have thought up fairer rules?
Good question.
God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose to obey or disobey His Command. Adam and Eve disobeyed, and actually rebelled against God, because Adam and Eve wanted to choose for themselves what was good and what was bad, instead of going along with what God says is good and what He says is bad.
I personally believe that God always does the most-just and most-loving thing, but I definitely do not always understand the things God chooses to do.
The best I can say in response is to post these Verses:
Isaiah 55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD [YHWH], and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
Isaiah 55:8: For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD [YHWH].
Isaiah 55:9: For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
1st Corinthians 2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1st Corinthians 2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1st Corinthians 2:14: But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1st Corinthians 1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 1:19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1st Corinthians 1:20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1st Corinthians 1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.1st Corinthians 1:22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1st Corinthians 1:23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1st Corinthians 1:24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1st Corinthians 1:25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1st Corinthians 1:26: For all of you see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1st Corinthians 1:27: But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1st Corinthians 1:28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are:
1st Corinthians 1:29: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
I am definitely going to try to respond to your other very good questions tomorrow or the next day.
funkyderek

I want to say that this is the best conversation about the Bible that I have had on this Website in quite a while. You have asked some extremely good questions, and I encourage everyone to ask tough questions.

Thank you. I try my best. Some people don't like to be asked difficult questions though. Glad you're not one of them.
Proverbs 14:15: A simple man believes everything, But the prudent man carefully considers his ways.
Wise words.
God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose to obey or disobey His Command. Adam and Eve disobeyed, and actually rebelled against God, because Adam and Eve wanted to choose for themselves what was good and what was bad, instead of going along with what God says is good and what He says is bad.
Forget the theological add-ons. Let's look at what "actually" happened. God told the newly created Adam and Eve not to eat from one special tree which he told them was called the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". (Already this reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons where Chief Wiggum asks Ralph "'What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mystery?"). They don't eat from it until a talking snake tells Eve that if she eats the fruit she won't die as God had claimed but will get knowledge of good and evil. She eats and doesn't die and does in fact gain knowledge of good and evil, as does Adam. God then throws them out of the garden of Eden, because otherwise they might eat from the tree of life and thereby live forever, which he doesn't want. He punishes the snake by removing its legs, and punishes all humankind by making Adam and Eve's punishment hereditary.
I personally believe that God always does the most-just and most-loving thing, but I definitely do not always understand the things God chooses to do.
Well hopefully you can understand why the above story seems like a fairy tale to me, and moreover, one which is grossly unfair. Perhaps it was the most just and most loving thing possible but it seems like exactly the opposite. It seems like the cruelest way possible to punish the most naive people who ever lived for falling into a trap set by their all-powerful creator (who lied to them). Killing them would have been fairer. It was the punishment they expected after all.
The one thing they do get is the ability to be like God, knowing good and evil, something we also seem to have inherited. My knowledge of good and evil tells me the behaviour of God in this story was evil. He lied and tricked innocent people - the most innocent people ever - and condemned their descendants to a life of difficulty followed by an eternity of suffering (albeit with the caveat that they can be "saved" from this punishment by believing something unbelievable). Now you can quote whatever scriptures you like about his thoughts being higher than ours, or his ways mysterious but his ways seem simplistic, cruel and primitive. In fact, they seem to be exactly the sort of thing you would expect from a mythological god, invented by primitive people as an early attempt to bring some order to the world around them.
If you didn't automatically defer to the belief that whatever God does must - by definition - be perfectly loving and just, how would you view him based on his behaviour as recorded in the Bible?

"Do JW's and Born-Again Christians have something in common?

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