by the real truth 38 Replies latest watchtower bible
But then again as someone else pointed out -- it might be easier than the Three Gods in One God theory that most Trinitarians uphold.
I don't know any Trinitarians at all who think that there are three Gods in one God. I do know a lot of Trinitarians who believe that there are three Persons who make up the one God.
But then, it's much easier to debunk a doctrine if you first distort what it teaches, isn't it?
I don't know any Trinitarians at all who think that there are three Gods in one God. I do know a lot of Trinitarians who believe that there are three Persons who make up the one God.But then, it's much easier to debunk a doctrine if you first distort what it teaches, isn't it?
That would be me. As much as I've read those words in Trinitarian literature, I have to admit they don't quite sink in like they have with you. I'm probably guilty of distorting the Trinity doctrine if it really teaches that the three Persons make up one God, but that each person is only a personality of God. I always got the impression that true believers in the Trinity actually do teach exactly that (3 Persons = 1 God, not 3 Gods = 1 God) but that this formula is more of a "posture," used only in the circumstance created when the required language becomes too obviously polytheistic. At all other times, when no one is questioning the doctrine, Jesus = fully God, the Father = fully God, and Holy Spirit = fully God. In fact, just as in NT practice, the Father becomes the primary person equated with God, which puts Trinitarians at even less variance with the unspoken beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
If the Father is fully God and Jesus is fully God, and they are both true, then we have two true Gods. If the Father is God and the Word is God then we have two Gods. If the Son/Messiah is Mighty God and the Father is Almighty God then we have two Gods.
If three persons are fully King, even if they meet and work together, see each other, represent each other and are sent by/from each other, we still have three Kings.
Rom 15:6: so that...you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6: yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Eph 4:6 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1 Thess 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
I know this subject gets beaten to death, but it's my first time discussing it. I should let you know that I do believe that the Gospel of John teaches exactly what you say (2 Persons = 1 God) and until just a few minutes ago, I used to think that John taught it very subtly so that it would sink in rather than offend the sensibilities of fellow Jewish/Christian monotheists. but I now believe that, although the language was necessarily careful, it is a lot more precise than I used to think. I have just reread a lot of John after your post above and I realize that John seems even more clearly in line with the definition you gave. It was JW baggage I've carried for 20 years that kept me from seeing it as simply as you put it.
Yet, although I could accept that John promoted that doctrine or definition consistently, I see nearly the opposite belief expressed consistently in nearly all (about 100) other "proof texts" with maybe 4 exceptions. Problem is, even those exceptions are ambiguous to me. If the Trinity was a necessary and "true" doctrine in the first century, it seems that John is the only writer who gets it (or, for whom the Spirit has revealed all things).
Gamaliel
I'm probably guilty of distorting the Trinity doctrine if it really teaches that the three Persons make up one God, but that each person is only a personality of God.
Well, not exactly. That sort of sounds like modalism (or Sabellianism), which teaches that there is one person who is God, but that He manifests Himself in three different ways, somewhat in the same way that I can be a father, a husband and an employee, even though I'm only one person. But the orthodox Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three distinct, coequal Persons who are God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Though they are distinct as to personality and function, they share a common nature and essence, so that there are not three Gods (even though each is fully God), but one God.
A bit confusing? Beyond our grasp? Sure, in some ways (though not nearly as confusing as the JW's make it out to be, imho). But why should we expect that the infinite God would be fully comprehensible by our finite minds? We can't fully comprehend the nature of God, any more than we can comprehend His eternity - that He actually exists outside of time.
although I could accept that John promoted that doctrine or definition consistently, I see nearly the opposite belief expressed consistently in nearly all (about 100) other "proof texts" with maybe 4 exceptions.
I don't think that's really true, unless, of course, you're using the NWT . Paul certainly makes no bones about the deity of Christ, or, for that matter, the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit. Calvary Chapel has a web page that lays out the doctrine about as well as I've seen anywhere, and you can find it here. Try looking up the scripture references and following the line of reasoning, and I think you'll see what I mean. Another excellent resource that I recently discovered is the book, The Forgotten Trinity, by James R. White. He explains the doctrine thoroughly in layman's terms. You might come away from the book still not believing in the doctrine (though I think he makes an excellent case for it), but at least you'll understand it. Amazon.com offers it here.
neon,
I feel like we've hijacked the thread but I suspect that the initiator expected something like this might happen.
I tried the Calgary site and looked up all the NT verses outside of John. It's a great resource for the doctrine, thanks.
I'm not terribly concerned whether the doctrine is "true" or not, my only concern, as you said, is understanding it and trying to see whether or how any Bible writers seemed to understand it. I'm fairly convinced that John understood and promoted something similar to the Trinity doctrine. It does bother me a bit that even in John he always provides an escape route for those who don't quite accept Jesus divinity.
I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews (42) picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for (43) blasphemy; and because You, being a man, (44) make Yourself out to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in (45) your (46) Law, ' (47) I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35. If he called them 'gods,'...
Or another answer to the I and the Father are one is the John 17 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
I'm sure these verses won't bother Trinitarians, but the pattern is unmistakable to me that John provides a hedge by explicity stating the Father is God, but only indirectly or implicitly equating the Son with God. The rest of the Bible is much more careful than John in not even implicitly equating Jesus/Son with God unless it's supposed to be even more ambiguous.
John 14... Trust in God [1] ; trust also in me...for the Father is greater than I...I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
The other verses I quoted in the last post show how easily the NT can use the expression God the Father (or even, God who is the Father) but NEVER dares use the expression God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. Many of the verses included on the Calgary site were also of this type that really show the language distinction. This includes the use of the prepositions like "from" and "through" in 1 Cor 8:6 and the fact that with three perfect chances in Eph 4:6, the rule still holds that only the Father got the title God. It's very clear to me that even if John believed it, Paul steered clear of the idea, and may have subtly fought against it, if he did know about it. I have my doubts though that Paul had ever heard of such an idea that the writer of John proposes.
Well, not exactly. That sort of sounds like modalism (or Sabellianism), which teaches that there is one person who is God, but that He manifests Himself in three different ways, somewhat in the same way that I can be a father, a husband and an employee, even though I'm only one person. But the orthodox Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three distinct, coequal Persons who are God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Though they are distinct as to personality and function, they share a common nature and essence, so that there are not three Gods (even though each is fully God), but one God.
I understand that I had Person too closely related to Personality in my post for the Orthodox definition. I see a problem in the argumentation, however, in the types of reasoning and equations on the Calgary site that are used for showing that the Holy Spirit is God and the Son is God. The problem is that proof texts of the kind used there would be consistent with logic that would lead one to believe that the Son is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Son in several verses of John. If that type of reasoning is not allowed then logically they should not be allowed to use the same type of logic to say that Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit is God.
Gam: although I could accept that John promoted that doctrine or definition consistently, I see nearly the opposite belief expressed consistently in nearly all (about 100) other "proof texts" with maybe 4 exceptions.
Neon: I don't think that's really true, unless, of course, you're using the NWT . Paul certainly makes no bones about the deity of Christ, or, for that matter, the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit.
The closest verse(s) I found in Paul's writings require the logical connection "IF a belongs to b AND a belongs to c THEN b = c". The verses are below. Did you find better ones?
1 Corinthians 6 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
2 Corinthians 6 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
Thanks for your time on this, btw.
Gamaliel
Gamaliel,
I just wanted to mention that I am a Christian and I believe in the Trinity.
You said:
I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews (42) picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for (43) blasphemy; and because You, being a man, (44) make Yourself out to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in (45) your (46) Law, ' (47) I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35. If he called them 'gods,'...
Or another answer to the I and the Father are one is the John 17 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
It is really important to read the surrounding context of those Verses in order to find out why the Jews picked up stones and tried to kill Jesus for saying those things:
Notice, first Jesus says that He is the Good Shepherd (see Psalm 23 and Isaiah 40:10-11):
John 10:11: I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His Life for the sheep.
Then Jesus says that He is going to die, and then resurrect HIMSELF:
John 10:17-18: Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This command I have received from My Father."
The following context is very important:
John 10:28-31: And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are One." Therefore the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Notice, in that context, Jesus said that "The Father is greater than all!" and then Jesus immediately says "I and The Father are One!" -- therefore, Jesus was saying that He was also "greater than all" equally with The Father -- and that is why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for claiming to be God!
John 10:32: Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
John 10:33: The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
John 10:34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
John 10:35: If He called those gods, to whom the Word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
John 10:36: do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Notice, Jesus was using a "how much more so" argument. Jesus was basically saying "If God called those human judges 'gods', then how much more so should the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world be called God or the Son of God."
It is the context that shows that Jesus was saying "I an the Father are One" in a different way than He did at John 17:21 -- afterall, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant at John 10:31, and tried to kill Him because of it.
Gamaliel said:
I'm sure these verses won't bother Trinitarians, but the pattern is unmistakable to me that John provides a hedge by explicity stating the Father is God, but only indirectly or implicitly equating the Son with God. The rest of the Bible is much more careful than John in not even implicitly equating Jesus/Son with God unless it's supposed to be even more ambiguous.
There is a really important point that several people do not realize right away -- the Bible teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% Human while on Earth and afterwards.
That means the Bible speaks of Jesus as a Man, and it also speaks of Jesus as God.
That explains why some Verses say that Jesus learned things (speaking of Him as a Man), and then other Verses say that Jesus knows all things, and doesn't need to learn anything (speaking of Him as God).
The Gospel of John shows that Jesus is equal to The Father several times:
John 1:1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.
John 20:27-29: Then He said to Thomas, "Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand here, and put it into My side. Be not unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 5:21-23: For as the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son gives life to whom He wills. For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
John 8:28: Therefore Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and from Myself I do nothing; but just as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.
John 8:53: "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? Also the prophets died. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
John 8:56-59: Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day, and he saw it and he was glad." Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, having gone through their midst, and so passed by.
UD,
Those are good points. Thanks. I don't have any doubt that John's version of Christ's Deity or even the Trinity was as you say or very close to it. The "how much more so argument" still leaves a hole, however. You're right that John explains the Jews understanding it in the sense of the Son's equality with God, but that kind of argument is still ambiguous. To me it's like if I go around to my co-workers and tell them that I am the son of the company CEO/President, and then surprise them one day and say I am the president of this company, and people who don't believe that I'm even the son of the president start making fun of me. So I say, ahh but even in the old memos you all got when you first started working here it says "you are all presidents." HOW MUCH MORE SO AM I PRESIDENT SINCE I AM SENT BY MY FATHER."
That would be the kind of argument you are talking about. The phrase "you are all presidents" isn't very appropriate to the HOW MUCH MORE SO argument (in typical modern logic) although it doesn't necessarily negate the argument or your explanation of it. Also there are other such cases where the argument seems to be that they were MISunderstanding him to be saying he was God when all he was saying is that he was the SON of God. Your answer could very well be right, but it only answers a specific case, but would break a pattern I think I'm seeing in John. Even without that case there still seems to be a pattern of creating a back-door. Still I think that John was definitely trying very carefully lead up to the understanding of Thomas: that Jesus was both "My Lord AND my God." John believes in the FULL deity of Christ and wants us to be led to that understanding, imo. The carefully hedged wording and ambiguity are probably intentional either for the survival of his document or as a literary tool to get us, the readers, to be led to Thomas' conclusion the way John wants us to experience it. To me, John starts out with the slightly ambiguous claim, and lets us think our way through it, with the same doubts that Jesus own companions would have felt as they watched him and wondered at the full meaning. If it's the latter, I think it was masterfully done.
Gamaliel
Very nice points Gamaliel!
I believe you are correct -- John did a masterful job of writing his Gospel (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit).
Also, I just wanted to mention that it was not only John who believed that Jesus was God, it was also Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, and Luke:
Paul:
Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom Christ came, according to the flesh, He who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Philippians 2:5: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6: who, existing in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Philippians 2:7: but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming to be in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
Colossians 1:15: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
Colossians 1:16: because by Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17: And He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Colossians 1:18: And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence,
Colossians 1:19: For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
Colossians 1:20: and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Titus 2:13: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Peter:
2 Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
2 Peter 1:11: For in this way the entrance will be supplied to you richly into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Matthew:
Matthew 1:21: And she shall bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins."
Matthew 1:22: Now all this came to pass that the thing spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,
Matthew 1:23: "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 14:26: And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out for fear.
Matthew 14:27: But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Have courage! I AM; do not fear."
Matthew 14:32: And when they had gotten into the boat, the wind ceased.
Matthew 14:33: Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Mark:
Mark 6:49: And seeing Him walking on the sea, they supposed Him to be a spirit, and they cried out;
Mark 6:50: for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He spoke with them, and said to them, "Have courage! I AM; do not be afraid."
Luke:
Luke 2:9: And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.
Luke 2:10: Then the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.
Luke 2:11: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Thanks. You are always very thorough. I know that you've likely seen the usual Greek textual issues surrounding many of those texts, but I will still go through them carefully. Also, some of those verses naturally mean something to you that they don't mean to me at the moment. When it comes to claims about nuances of Greek texts about all I can do is just look to see if the idea in the verse in question fits the context or rest of the ideas that the writer seems to present in that book. If it doesn't conflict with the idea in context, then I have no good reason not to accept a variant reading as a possible one. I still have some work to do on this subject because I never took the time to read these other NT books just for their perspective on this doctrine.
Thanks again,
Gamaliel
Hi Gamaliel,
Here are some more Verses I forgot to post earlier:
Hebrews Chapter 1:
God, who in various ways and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the effulgence of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him for a Father, and He shall be to Me for a Son"? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
And on the one hand he says to the angels, "He who makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire." But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions."
And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You continue; and they all shall grow old like a garment; and like a cloak You will roll them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail."
But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"? Are they not all ministering spirits being sent out to minister for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?
Acts 20:28: Pay attention therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He has purchased with His own Blood.
