Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)

by Simon 71 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  steve2

  Comversely, we have the natural sociopaths and narcissists, the abusers, who USE the WT, as do pedophiles, as a cover-up and excuse for their own inclinations towards abuse

  Talesin, for me you have hit the nail on the head. We likely all know of individuals in the organization who shun with absolute relish, who go out of their way to dramatize their acts of shunning.

  Look at that mother who fronted at one of the conventions in the US earlier this year (now on youtube) who declared to the audience she had told her children, "I love you and would give my life for you. But if you leave Jehovah, I won't be there."

  She verbalized a kind of dramatic repressed air of martyrdom - agonized and distraught when one of her children left the organization. But she held fast and that child eventually returned.
• 

  done4good

  Simon, good post.

  I think most people oversimplify the shunning issue. While it is true that the organization does sanction such behavior, it is only successful at doing so because the behavior itself is actually a natural response to someone experiencing cognitive dissonance, in this context.

  No one chooses to shun someone simply because that other person chooses to think differently about a matter. For the most part, people are comfortable enough with what they "know", (even if it is incorrect), that they can handle disagreement, without it threatening their belief system.

  A person choosing to shun, in contrast, is actually a very insecure person. Deep down they are not comfortable or confident in their belief system, hence do not allow it to be challenged. They will not debate, because they cannot, and they know it. The natural response someone in such a mental state will have is a shutdown response, that will not allow open discussion. This is where shunning begins.
  

  In fact, even the presence of such a person presents the unpleasant effects of cognitive dissonance. This is because tacit information is communicated indirectly, such as that former believer being a "good" person, that is not becoming the monster that the believer was warned about just because that person changed their belief system. That is actually very powerful subconscious information that demonstrates the teachings of the belief system are likely wrong, even in this seemingly small way, and ultimately why shunning is applied even when discussion concerning one's belief system is not taking place.

  The organization simply chooses to take that one step further and institutionalize the behavior. Unfortunately the behavior itself will likely not change for anyone committed that seriously to the belief system.
  

  d4g
  
• 

  cognac

  "Look at that mother who fronted at one of the conventions in the US earlier this year (now on youtube) who declared to the audience she had told her children, "I love you and would give my life for you. But if you leave Jehovah, I won't be there.""

  
  

  Steve2 - Do you have the link to that?
• 

  nicolaou

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ-kzaIK_UA
• 

  tornapart

  Nicolau:- It's no defence to say God and/or his representatives must be obeyed, obedience is a choice

  The thing is they believe that if they don't obey God they will die at Armageddon and lose out on everlasting life.... the big stick and the big carrot. In their eyes it's not much of a choice. We can see straight through it but they have been brainwashed.
• 

  cognac

  Thanks Nic. Wow, that's vomit worthy...
• 

  Simon

  The thing is they believe that if they don't obey God they will die at Armageddon and lose out on everlasting life ...

  I'm not sure they are reasoning quite in that direct way. I believe few people ever genuinely reason "if I talk to you I will die at the big A" even though the end result may appear that way (yeah, I guess some will but I think it's what they "say" more than truly believe).

  It's really a chain of beliefs with a crucial link being "I must obey". The message to them should aim to weaken that and strengthen the "show compassion / be christian" link instead to the point that it takes over.

  That's why I think forcing them to recognize their choice, especially if they have to vocalize it, can be more effective than simply trying to heap blame on the WTS - too far removed.

  I agree too that some use the shunning as an excuse to act out being cruel or grabbing power and it doesn't really bother them - they relish it.
• 

  Phizzy

  I don't have the time right now to read the whole Thread, so forgive me if I cover ground that others have dealt with.

  I know several JW's who say "I don't do shunning", Mrs Phizzy and I have been told this several times since we left, and by others before we left, talking about people other than us obviously.

  The surprising one to me was a born-in, in for over 60 years, Uber JW, she believed all the doctrinal and other nonsense, except if it came to shunning any member of her family, she said " I just would not do it ".

  That gives me hope.

  And I think Simon makes an excellent point, we need to say often and loud : "some JWs are unloving and unchristian because they choose to follow the shunning of their loved ones".

  Many of our modern Laws are only observed because the opinions of people have been changed by Mantras being repeated time and time again, if people chose not to observe these Laws, like not smoking in various Public places, or the wearing of Seat-belts, then those Laws would fail.

  People do care what others think of them, personally, we need to put the responsibility firmly upon the individual JW thinking of Shunning.
• 

  WingCommander

  I'd just like to take a moment to clarify that I feel that not only is the interviewing speaker, but also the parental units in that video are total douchebags. This is the type of people I had to contend with growing up. They were all around me. (I live only 2.5 hours from Brooklyn Bethel) These people are cold-hearted, ruthless, vindictive, narcissist, unapologetic, spiteful, hateful, self-centered sociopaths who lack empathy for others and only care about their own appearance before their almighty WT Cult. F*ck these D-bags, and everyone like them such as: Scientologists, Mormons, SDA's, Moonies, and similar. Emotional leeches, all of them.
  
• 

  Diogenesister

  Some people seem to get very agitated when I talk about the responsibility people have to make the right choices and that despite all the wrongs within the WTS, people themselves have a role to play and some personal responsibility for the experience.

  They may be an element of not wanting to face the fact that their loved one is making any kind of personal choice to shun them. Who can blame them. It hurts like hell.

  But we have all seen posters who say that they have never personally shunned. It can be done.

  I remember one poster likening it to (in the case of a parent shunning a child)watching their child drown without taking the risk of diving in and trying to save them. In other words the parent is protecting their own life at the expense of the childs'. Utterly unnatural.

  Of course the shunning parent would counter that they don't personally care about living forever (and that they would willingly swap with their child)but rarther it is their love and loyalty to Jah that is the reason they shun.

  Jah has plenty of children, he will be vindicated (or not)with or without you. On the other hand, maybe JW's should play fair - maybe Jahs laws should be broken, maybe he should loose, maybe he's not the better 'man'!

  Why do they shun people? Clearly, for a high-control group like the WTS it's so that they can protect their membership

  Absolutely, to protect them from 'ttatt' erosion as you say but also on a basic level to have an 'in' group you have to make an 'out' group, which is essentially what being a witness is all about - isolation from 'the other/the rest' its just notching it up another level.

  Essentially though, I think people hand the Society as much power as they wish. Everyone knows the pioneer/elder who sees their d/f son all the time and who noone would dream of saying a word to.

  Accepted that some congs may be worse than others but....

  I know people who would not dream of shunning their family member, cutting only, as has been said 'spiritual ties'.

  At the end of the day noone has been stopped from going out in service for not shunning a relative, the only command a JW should be worried about as I see it.

  As the Manic Street Preachers song goes

  "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next"