Ubiquitous-
So then why was my mother told by two elders that she would NEVER be baptised if she talked to me after I disassociated myself?
That doesn't seem very gray to me.
Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus 207 Replies latest jw friends
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Cicatrix
............Any other proofs that JW's are mind controlled???
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Cicatrix
............Any other proofs that JW's are mind controlled???
When faced with a person who says they are being brainwashed, they say stuff like "Well, if learning by repetition not to do things like steal and commit adultery is brainwashing, then I want my brain that clean." .. and all the while they are so anxious about not breaking any of the thousands of little rules- like not wearing their skirt past their knees or watching Smurfs on tv- that it is making them literally sick, until they wake up one day and realize that they don't have to attend five meetings a week to keep from becoming a thief and an adulterer, because it was never anything they intended to do all along.
Yep, that was me folks. LOL
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minimus
Knowing that you CAN'T ask certain questions without getting into some trouble is another example of mind control. You can't make a statement that you might believe to be true if it's not the official party line of the organization. If you ask a question about whether 1914 was the actual enthronement of the King Jesus in the heavens, you will either be intially viewed as a weak doubter that needs immediate "help" or as an "apostate" for voicing disagreement of the Governing Body's printed "food at the proper time". For those that try to say that you CAN ask questions or express disagreements, try it. Those that attempt to exercise mind control will view you as a threat and get rid of you in no time.
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garybuss
Min, It is people who are responsible. Look at the Nazi war trials. Those Nazis were held personally responsible even though they were following orders of maybe one of the highest control groups in modern history.
The Watergate plumbers were individually tried and found responsible even though they were simply following orders of the President of the United States. As Dr Phil says, "That dog won't hunt!".
The threats and controlling behaviors in the group of the JWs is just the wrangling of people who are willingly members of the group. Willingly following directions in order to stay in the group. GaryB -
minimus
Of course, the people are the ones that do or don't do a certain thing. But why? Because they are conditioned by the Society. If the Society didn't say JW's couldn't take a blood transfusion, Jw's wouldn't have given this a 2nd thought. If the Society didn't say birthdays are unchristian, millions of JW's would celebrate. Because the Society says you can celebrate anniverseries, millions celebrate. .....Yes, the "Watch Tower Publishing Corporation (as I believe you like to refer to them) give the thought and the faithful do follow.......So I say: If the WBTS DIDN'T say these things, didn't make their adherents believe these thing were true and came from God thru His Slave, MILLIONS of JW's wouldn't do it. They do what they're told to do by the Society because they are conditioned to believe that the society speaks for God Himself. Phew! If that ain't evidence of mind control, what is?
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gambit
Minimus --
IMHO, you're beating a dead horse. garybuss is centering his position around responsibility, not mind control. I don't believe he refuted anything I said, on his behalf BTW... So, here is what I gather... psychobabble, look out...
garybuss believes that by saying the WTBTS uses mind control, he exonerates the individual. Thus, if gary where to take this position, he would not be able to "cast stones" at others that are still under the influence. In addition, I hear traces of gary's own self-directed anger because he does feel responsible for some of the "wrongs" he committed. Again, he doesn't want to free himself from this guilt... That's a commendable personal position, ie, to try to right one's wrongs, but I argue, that through understanding what really happened, the corrections could be made in a positive, giving way rather than in a frustrated manor.
gary -- I want you to understand that I am not writing this as an attack. My point is to determine whether you agree with minimus or not, concerning the "Mind Control" independent of responsibility. You points are well taken, but I am confused about your actual answer.
jgnat -- very well said and I agree completely --
If we use the "abused spouse" analogy a little further, what can be done for an abused partner that is so under the influence of her abuser that she is incapable of leaving? Not very much. One can try coersion, but then we are no different than her abuser. Besides, a weak person who is coerced to leave, is just as vulnerable to being sucked back in.
We can work at building that person's confidence in their own decision-making power, so that they have the strength to leave if they chose to. This takes a long time, and it can be excruciating to watch. It is like watching a person leisurely pick at their ropes as a locomotive bears down on them. But I have yet to come up with an easier method.
So in the end, it must come down to personal responsibility to leave or stay, because nobody else can do it for them. To admit to personal responsibility is not the same as denying that there is mind-control.
I would like to add that I believe it is more painful to watch an "abused spouse" situation that it is a JW. One - on - One control is soooo personally life threatening in ALL ways. As a bystander sometimes it feels like all you can do is hope that their really is a god who cares, and start praying. My heart goes out to those in this position. And yes, these people are victims of victims... I beleive that.
gambit
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minimus
I believe Gary feels that the WBTS is MERELY a publishing company and nothing more. I think he feels that you cannot get under the mind control of a publishing corp. Why he feels this way is beyond me but I agree, this may be beating a dead horse. For the record, I believe that we're ultimately responsible for our actions. If we're "brainwashed" and kill someone, we are the ones going to jail. But we can't absolve the brainwasher as merely a corporation or simply "Big Brother".
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heathen
I am still with ya minimus .IMO the WT has very effective techniques in subverting the weak minded individuals free will .You did make a good point about the 1914 date and the scripture announcing the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of God . If anyone was to say that this was not the intended application of the scripture they would go right into the you are spiritually weak and there is something wrong with you but not our reasoning . They even admit they are not infallible but will still insist that there is only one way to do things and that is the WTBTS way of doing things. It's very clever how they manipulate people that alot can't even detect it . Most people with friends or family in the org. but none outside would be easily ensnared by this logic as they would be on the deffensive and try to protect the only known source of security that they will have friends by allowing themselves to be brainwashed. Like I said before I wasn't in the org. so this is just a likely scenario . I did study for awhile and could see the attempts made to shut down any sense that I had a valid arguement against any of the teachings. I think they do use voodoo techniques as well .
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minimus
The WBTS is clever too! They are the "faithful and discreet slave" but they don't promote this. If I recall correctly, some years back, they said the WBTS was the rep of the slave. Then they started to even back off from using the expression ,"the Society", although, they still use it. They try to make people think they are merely a publishing corporation.