by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
You asked, "How?"
I have the wt. I know the teaching.
I think what you were originally implying is that ALL of the prophecy you cited was fulfilled then. My question was how was the part of the prophecy in vs 30 that deals with the parousia fulfilled then? (Since Jesus did not return in the manner described in Daniel which Jesus alluded to at his ascension.)
Vanderhoven7
The 1914 parousia is bogus and spurious to scripture.
--
This is your opinion. The fact of the matter is that 1914 marking the end of the Gentile times followed by the Parousia are elements of the Olivet Discourse which in total is Eschatology. Eschatology is a major part of the entire NT so before you dismiss the view of others you should have your own Eschatology and that seems to be missing from you so unless you have something to offer then you could learn from others who do have something to offer.
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And as I said, everything in Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century and that obviously includes verse 30.
It also includes the Jews who survived the first-century tribulation being deported into the surrounding nations. Luke 21:24
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You are correct here because Jesus' answer to His disciples featured a first-century fulfilment and its tribulation but His answer also pointed to the future or showed an eschatological focus which was further developed by the book of Revelation the activity of an eschatological Church of the anointed remnant.
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The question is, does the text allow for dual fulfilment. Will the Jews be deported once again? And the answer is a definite no.
---
Again, this is simply your opinion. The Olivet Discourse contains an answer from the Master to three questions from His disciples and it is only the first question that applies to the first century in connection with the Jewish Temple. the latter questions and answers clearly point to a future time -eschatological as recognized by many commentators.
scholar JW
Hi Scholar
It's not my opinion. The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
.
Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
.
Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
.
Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the
desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in hisory;(Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19), a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.
"All these things" include the deportation. This will not happen to the Jews again subsequent to any future tribulation.
Vanderhoven 7
The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
---
Nonsense for the Synoptics show otherwise that there was both a minor and major fulfilment as the following proves:
Each one of the Synoptics show the following pericope that immediately after those events that there would be celestial events accompanying the appearance of the Son of Man which clearly did not occur in the first century with the events at the time of Jerusalem's destruction.
scholar JW
Hi Scholar,
I believe in letting scripture interpret scripture, especially when apocalyptic and figurative language is employed. Let's look at verse 29 for starters.
29.
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E
DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL
FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE
SHAKEN:
Most
people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the
world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by
the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after
the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc.
The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually
obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish
nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer
reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers
would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.
WHEN
WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in
the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and
Idumea.
Is.13:9,
10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the
day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof
out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof
shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going
forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.
If
the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses
such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen
nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used
to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword
shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea,
and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
If
the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses
such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such
an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not
such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen
nation of
Israel?
Ez.32:2,
7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates
similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation
for Pharaoh king of
Egypt...And when I shall put thee out, I will
cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will
cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and
set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
If
the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses
such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen
nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used
to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts
2:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64
Dan.8:10-11,
speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one
horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down
some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on
them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of
the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)
ALL THESE THINGS WERE TO HAPPEN TO THE GENERATION JESUS SPOKE ABOUT....NOT JUST SOME FOR HIS GENERATION AND SOME FOR OURS.
By the way Scholar...are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day? Why or why not?
5 days of ‘scholar’ spouting nonsense. But JW teachings about 1914 remain obviously false.
What Does the Bible Really Teach…
Vanderhoven 7
You have not addressed the following issue in those pericopes about the sign of the Son of Man and its accompanying events.
scholar JW
Hi Scholar
Why haven't you addressed my questions?
1. Are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?
2. Why or why not?
Hi Scholar,
A good book you might want to read is "Matthew 24" by Marcelus Kik some of which I share on this and other verses.
30.
AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND
THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE
THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND
GREAT GLORY.
(See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)
Note
that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the
Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem,
the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the
fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the
surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these
calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would
mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city,
sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.
THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN
"The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be
such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal
manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes
shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of
God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of
the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places,
the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the
Jewish people wherever found."
AND
THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT
GLORY.
Does
the phrase "coming (erchomai
not
parousia) in the clouds"
necessarily refer to a personal
coming to earth? We should not
read that thought into the text.
Isaiah 19:1 states "See the Lord rides
on a swift cloud and is
coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt
shall be moved at His
presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in
the midst of it"
Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a
cloud and of
His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see
the Lord in a
personal and visible way. The expression is rather
used to
indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus
coming in the
clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of
judgment.
The
clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
They were
to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power.
This power
was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers
to the
visible display of his honor, power and majesty.
That
Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel
9:27
reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he,
the
Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate (Titus
merely
being his instrument.) Confirmation is found in Jesus'
exclusion parables.
Mt.21: 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh
(ἔρχομαι erchomai), what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked
men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which
shall render him the fruits in their seasons. See also Lu.20:15,16
"The timing on this is relevant this coming in vengeance, would climax the tribulation and occur in the lifespan of Christ's own generation. Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (ἔρχομαι erchomai) in his kingdom. (Mt.10:23 Lu.9:27)
Finally, in the often-overlooked trial scene in 26:64, Jesus says to the high priest that “from now on you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The key phrase in this passage is “from now on”, which is about as close as Matthew comes to the outright investment of glory which John gives to the cross when he attests Jesus as saying things like “Now the son of man is glorified”, “Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out”, and “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31, 32; 13:31). The conviction which both Matthew and John unambiguously express is that the exaltation of the son of man would be seen not merely at the end of history but also in the matrix of events unfolding from his messianic work in the middle of history."
