Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Fisherman

  after the tribulation ends, does 'Christ appear

  The text describes the sign of the parousia (What will be the sign of your presence) before and after the tribulation begins. If you compare the Parousia to the fulfillment of all the signs Jesus gave the 1 century christians before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Seige of Jerusalem as the great tribulation, the sign of the parousia has many aspects such as war preaching etc—and Christians see that sign others take no note of the sign of his Parousia. When the enemies see the sign, they are caught likevthe Romans caught the Judeans,

  So when it hits someone over the head, they don’t need a sign.

  Convergence of many scriptures having to do with irony, poetic justice, timing, vengeance. In other words: “ I’ll show you.”
  
  
• 

  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  The text describes the sign of the son of man before and after the tribulation begins.

  Entirely and unambiguously incorrect. The 'sign of the Son of man' is explicitly described as appearing only after the 'tribulation' has ended. Earlier events (as a preamble to the 'tribulation') that you are conflating with the 'sign of the Son of man' are explicitly described as an indication that "he is near", not that his 'presence' had already begun.
  
• 

  Fisherman

  Entirely and unambiguously incorrect. The 'sign of the Son of man' is explicitly described as appearing only after the 'tribulation' has ended.

  The sign of the parousia ironically includes the sign of the son of man seen by the enemies when it is too late.
  
  
• 

  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  The sign of the parousia ironically includes the sign of the son of man seen by the enemies when it is too late.

  No. "The sign of the parousia" is "the sign of the son of man", it doesn't merely 'include' it. You are conflating the response to the initial question 'when will these things be' with the response about the 'presence'. Jesus' response indicating the 'parousia' (Strong's G3952), which includes the 'gathering of the chosen ones', is only mentioned in connection with the sign that would appear after the 'tribulation' had ended. No part of the events leading up to the 'triublation' are described as Jesus' 'parousia'. In Jesus' response (in Matthew chapter 24), the word 'parousia' appears only in verses 27, 37 and 39; it doesn't appear at all in the other 'gospels'.
  
• 

  Fisherman

  In other words:

  • 37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.38For as they were in those days BEFORE the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,39and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
• 

  Fisherman

  The sign of the parousia" is "the sign of the son of man",

  Tell US when will these things be and what will be the SIGN of your Parousia.

  Also:

  But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is REVEALED.

  There is a point in time during his parousia when he is revealed to his enemies. That’s who the sign of the son of man is for.
  
  
• 

  Jeffro

  Fisherman:

  In other words:

  37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.38For as they were in those days BEFORE the Flood...

  You seem to be attempting to associate the 'flood' in the analogy with the 'tribulation'. If that is your aim, you are plainly wrong. The events described are explicitly described as being after the tribulation, and the 'flood' as used there is analogous to the 'gathering (or what some call the 'rapture') of the chosen ones' who have already been through the 'tribulation' (which would be 'cut short on their account'). The order of the purported events in Matthew 24:29-42 is quite clear. Matthew 24:40-41 in particular confirms that the 'presence' is not some protracted period incorporating events leading up to the tribulation, or the tribulation itself. The period leading up to the presence is directly analogous to the period leading up to the flood, and the 'presence' is analogous to the unexpected arrival of the 'flood' itself.
  

  But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is REVEALED.

  The word rendered 'revealed' is not linguistically associated with 'parousia' at all. However, in context, the verse reflects the 'sign of Jesus' presence' that Matthew explicitly describes as appearing after the tribulation.
  
• 

  Fisherman

  Jeffro,

  OK. Take care.
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Jeffro, you are right about what you saying of the Gospel of Matthew saying the presence is after the tribulation (if you also mean that the presence starts when Christ comes in judgement and as King) and that the presence analogous to the unexpected arrival of the 'flood' itself. I discovered that teaching myself (at least that the start of the parousia is when the sign of the son Man begins) in 1995 (or shortly later) when I started reading and very carefully studying Matthew chapters 24-25 independent of WT interpretation of those chapters (except that I was reading the verses in the NWT Bible). That discovery was during the beginning of me realizing I need to think independently of the WT in scriptural matters, though I was still a ministerial servant at the time (though my field service activity had dropped to a very low level around 1995). In 2000 or 2001 I stopped almost all attendance of JW meetings at the Kingdom Hall.

  You made a good point in saying that the word parousia (presence) in not used in the gospels attributed to Mark, Luke, and John.
  

  I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24. Maybe that is part of the evidence that the oldest parts of the book of Revelation were written by a non-Christian Jew. Maybe it is also evidence that the book of Revelation should be rejected as part of the Christian NT Bible.

  There is also little in Matthew 25:31-46 which correlates with anything in the book of Revelation.
  
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Fisherman

  You must have missed it then. Check back several posts.

  Clark summarizes verse 30 this way:

  Verse 30

  Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

  Jesus clearly did answer all their questions. Verses 36-44 answered their concerns about the parousia.

  .

  So you pray that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?

  What do you think in Matthew 24:20 Jesus was asking those listening back then to pray?

  What do you think Jesus wanted JWs to pray today?

  Was Jesus instruction meant literally for those listening to him and symbolically for us today?

  It would be interesting to see a side-by-side sample of the two prayers. Perhaps you might share how you pray that your flight won't be in winter or on a Sabbath day.