Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Besides the great tribulation which befell the Jews of Jerusalem in 70 CE what about the even greater tribulation which befell the Jews of Judea, even of Jerusalem, in circa 135 CE (or 136 CE) when the Romans defeated Bar Kokhba (Simon bar Kokba) and his revolt? Christians very rarely mention that revolt and the ensuing punishment to the Jews of Judea. I think it is probably because it conflicts with their teaching that the greatest tribulation to befall Jerusalem and Jews was in 70 CE. Prior to the revolt the Roman emperor brought about the "construction of a new city, Aelia Capitolina, over the ruins of Jerusalem and the erection of a temple to Jupiter on the Temple mount.[9]" (see link to article below). During the revolt Bar Kokhba had recaptured Jerusalem and created an independent Jewish state over most of Judea, and Jewish coins were minted in Jerusalem! Possibly the Jewish temple (what remained of it) was even rededicated to Yahweh (the Jewish coins had a depiction of the Jewish temple). The Bar Kokba revolt/war lasted from circa 132 CE to 136 CE (or to 135 CE?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt says the following.

    "Despite arrival of significant Roman reinforcements from Syria, Egypt, and Arabia, initial rebel victories over the Romans established an independent state over most parts of Judea Province for over three years, as Simon bar Kokhba took the title of Nasi ("head of state"). As well as leading the revolt, he was regarded by many Jews as the Messiah, who would restore their national independence.[12] ... The Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in the extensive depopulation of Judean communities, more so than during the First Jewish–Roman War of 70 CE.[14] ... The Jewish communities of Judea were devastated to an extent which some scholars describe as a genocide. ... After the suppression of the revolt, Hadrian's proclamations sought to root out Jewish nationalism in Judea,[9] which he saw as the cause of the repeated rebellions. He prohibited Torah law and the Hebrew calendar, and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scrolls of Judaism were ceremonially burned at the large Temple complex for Jupiter which he built on the Temple Mount. At this Temple, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea or Ancient Israel, he wiped the name off the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina.[22][23][24] By destroying the association of Jews with Judea and forbidding the practice of the Jewish faith, Hadrian aimed to root out a nation that had inflicted heavy casualties on the Roman Empire. Similarly, under the argument to ensure the prosperity of the newly founded Roman colonia of Aelia Capitolina, Jews were forbidden to enter, except on the day of Tisha B'Av.[76]"

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    Your little summaries contain nonsense for such are easily refuted. LOL!!

    Thanks for the irrelevant baseless assertion (I wonder if he even realises that something isn't actually refuted just by claiming it can be). Anyway, since you’re so confident, provide scriptural backing for the JW notion that the ‘great tribulation’ occurs after Jesus’ presence begins. Of course this is just one example of the many problems, but it will do for now.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    Each one of the Synoptics show the following pericope that immediately after those events that there would be celestial events accompanying the appearance of the Son of Man which clearly did not occur in the first century with the events at the time of Jerusalem's destruction.

    The fact that some things they expected to happen didn’t happen isn’t evidence that it will happen at a later time. They were just wrong.

    It’s also amusing that you recognise that the ‘celestial’ signs were supposed to happen after the ‘tribulation’ but ignore the fact that Jesus’ presence is supposed to happen after those ‘signs’.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Van you didn’t show me how v30 was fulfilled back then?

    When the Apostles asked the question;

    1. When will these things be? (Referring to the destruction of the Temple)

    2. What will be the sign of your Parousia? (They probably figured at the same time the Temple would be destroyed)

    3. The conclusion of this system of things? (They also figured it was all connected to the other questions they asked.)

    There were 3 separate questions involving different time periods. How do we know that all parts of the answer have dual fulfillments?

    Jesus answered their question relating to the destruction of the Temple ( which most didn’t see completely fulfilled anyway because they were killed beforehand.) But Jesus also answered their question about the parousia ( which did not happen back then) and about the conclusion of the system of things—and while is is true that the Jewish system of worship came to an end in 70, Pharisaical Judaism survived and settled in Javneh( The Talmud recounts that Rabbi Jochanan born in 30 and contemporary of Jesus escaped besieged Jerusalem in a coffin and appeared before Vespasian who gave him the city and to other Jews to settle in Javneh. So, Jews built the Rabbinical Pharisaical Judaism we see today from Javneh and the destruction of the Temple was not the conclusion of Judaism although in God’s estimate it was. So one aspect of conclusion did happen when the Temple2 was razed by the Romans but another aspect of conclusion meaning complete annihilation of bogus religion and of God’s enemies before the millennium (that the rest of the Bible alludes to) did not happen in 70. So, in his answer to the question about conclusion we at WT conclude that the sign Jesus gave to the Apostles about the destruction of Jerusalem also has a fulfillment in the last days before the millennium such ad preaching, the attack on religion etc.

    But the part of the sign about parousia was not fulfilled back then for example ALL the tribes of the earth beating themselves in lamentation, not everybody lamented not even some Jews in Jerusalem who despised Jesus and built in Javneh not to mention tribes and people all over the earth who were not affected by the destruction of Jerusalem. Also, the sign of the son of man in heavens;

    Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory—Can you show me from God’s Word where this happened in 70?

    There was an interesting WT study several years ago which most people didn’t realize the implication. It was the one about the locust I think and it also stated that some prophecies don’t have dual fulfillments but if you read carefully the implication is that some parts of prophecy may have more than one fulfillment and other parts of the same prophecy may not. For example there are similarities in the Olivette about 70 and during the parousia but there may be differences that don’t parallel. Obviously Jesus did not return in the clouds of heaven to some people that did not die in 70 but lived to build a Rabbinical Judaism and on the other hand did return on the the clouds to some that died when the 2nd Temple was destroyed which means that that part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. So again, without wt saying anything new about the Olivette, based on the new. method of interpreting prophecy if some PARTS of the Olivette don't have dual fulfillment, it is in harmony with wt method of interpretation of prophecy.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    The fact that some things they expected to happen didn’t happen isn’t evidence that it will happen at a later time. They were just wrong.

    That is a different topic. The subject matter of this thread is based on the premise that the Bible is God’s Word.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    provide scriptural backing for the JW notion that the ‘great tribulation’ occurs after Jesus’ presence begins.

    --

    Too easy. The structure of the narrative as recorded in the Olivet Discourse shows that the timing of the Great Tribulation is associated with the ;chosen ones' so it would appear that such an activity including that there would be false prophets that would attempt to mislead those same chosen ones would occur not at the beginning of the Parousia but rather towards the end of the Parousia.

    Scholar triumphs again!!

    scholar JW

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    Are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?
    2. Why or why not?


    I am.


    Are you implying that the parausia will not parallel the destruction of Jerusalem because of your method of interpretation of Bible prophecy?

    First of all Jesus gave us templates on how to interpret scripture and prophecy, the same patern used by Paul also Jesus combines 70CE with the Parausia with his prophecies at the Olivette though different dates so we can conclude there are some parallels. To validate this method of dual fulfillment, Jesus likened the the days of Noah—that destruction—to his prophecy about the end so there are similarities in praying to God for salvation and keeping on the watch.

    What Jesus said about Sabbath snd winter is a literary device, poetic language.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    'scholar':

    Too easy. The structure of the narrative as recorded in the Olivet Discourse shows that the timing of the Great Tribulation is associated with the ;chosen ones' so it would appear that such an activity including that there would be false prophets that would attempt to mislead those same chosen ones would occur not at the beginning of the Parousia but rather towards the end of the Parousia.

    Nope. No Bible citations to be found there. You have provided speculative commentary about an interpretation that contradicts the plain reading of the relevant scriptures.

    What the Bible does say is that the "false prophets" (for which you are a fine allegory) would be claiming that 'Christ' would appear before the end of the 'tribulation', whereas Jesus is quoted as explicitly saying his 'presence' would be after the tribulation. (Matthew 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27).

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    No bible citations to be found there

    Volumes at wt commentaries.

    his 'presence' would be after the tribulation

    They will see alright. They will have to see after the great tribulation like in the days of Noah and like those that rejected the many signs Jesus performed during his life. Do you think in their minds, they saw back then. They came to a realization. They were found fighters of God’s kingdom. Now they see!!

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    'scholar':

    The structure of the narrative as recorded in the Olivet Discourse shows that the timing of the Great Tribulation is associated with the ;chosen ones'

    That is 'word salad'. It isn't the 'structure of the narrative' that 'shows the timing'. The direct statements in Matthew 24:15-31 indicate the 'timing'. Regarding the 'chosen ones', the passage directly states that the 'tribulation' would be 'cut short' on account of the 'chosen ones', and only after the tribulation had ended was 'Christ' meant to appear to 'gather' the 'chosen ones'. No part of the 'structure' suggests the 'presence' of Christ prior to or even during the 'tribulation'.

    The JW claim that Jesus' presence began in 1914 with a yet future 'great tribulation' contradicts the Bible's quite direct order of events: 'great tribulation', and then Christ's presence. Their view is a relic of C. T. Russell's failed claims about 1799, 1874 and 1878 and J. F. Rutherford's subsequent attempts to retrofit those claims to 1914 and beyond.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit