by Isambard Crater 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
In the ancient world fabrications grew out of previously devised fabrications of mythology, it was very important to those ancient civilizations as it is known and should be accepted by us living today.
The Jesus god of the NT was probably the most appealing god that came out the ancient world from a human sociological and sociopolitical perspective.
Venus Verse 20 says: “he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken
Wouldn't the bones in his wrists be broken when the nails were driven in?
It's only in the Bible that you'll find the account of Jesus legs not being broken, or Daniels prophecy regarding the statue. Anyone could easily write that "prophesy" after the event. Outside of the scriptures we have no mention of anyone in Judea or Galillee raising the dead, walking on water or being ressurected.
Here's what history HAS actually been able to verify:
There was a man called Yeshua (or Yeshua Bar Yosef) who lived at that time who had some followers beleving him to be the messiah. And was killed.
That's it.
Yeshua is regarded as simply a Jewish apostate who became somewhat of a philosopher with some followers. There were other so-called messiah claimants at the same time as Yeshua who also had many followers. Some had even more than him. In this case, Yeshua's following stuck and people added tales upon tales to make him sound mystical.
Hanged Man
It's the story of the suns journey round the zodiac.....The sign of the zodiac that ends the suns "career" just before the winter solstice is Sagittarius.....the centaur/centurion who pierces the sun with his spear and brings sunny boy's journey to an end......The old "Lion King" dies and the new son/sun starts his trip around the circuit with the "twelve" signs of the zodiac.
Interesting. I have never heard this before.
Well I would say that before you even question how it is that Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy, you should question how it is you can be so certain that the NT accounts of his life are true and accurate. I mean, how do you know for sure that NT writers didn't just write fictional narratives to match up with OT prophecies in a bid to give legitimacy to the idea that their cult leader is the messiah? You do realize that the NT writers had access to and knowledge of the OT, right? How hard do you think it would have been to create fictional narratives that portray their leader as fulfilling OT prophecy?
I sincerely believe that, like fictional movies and television that do not have to put up disclaimers because everyone knows its fiction, everyone pretty much knew back in the days that their religious story tellers were telling fictions without saying so.
dear Isambard Crater...
Paul was able to convince jewish people that Jesus was the Messiah using the OT years after the events. Because he had to defend the gospel publicly they likely had their own arguments as to why Jesus wasn't the Messiah.
That's the question the bible answers. Is Jesus the Messiah that was expected?...there is no argument from any of the jews as to His existence or His miracles.
The OT prophets spoke about a man who would come to REDEEM israel (the people group). Paul was able to show from the OT who the redeemer was, how he would redeem, why he needed to redeem and what manner the redemption would be ie: immediate physical or eternal spiritual.
So, I guess my question to you is: are you looking at the OT to simply believe that Jesus existed? (Because they wont help you believe He existed any more than the NT will) besides, like james said, " even the demons believe." (james 2:19)
No, searching the scriptures to find belief is futile imo. BUT, if you look at yourself and believe you need someone to redeem you from sin, then the bible will show you who that redeemer is. Paul could convince opposing jews in his day that Jesus was the promised redeemer, and the same scriptures can convince you too.
If you don't think you are a sinner in need of redemption then what is the point in "believing"...really?
love michelle
Crazyguy,
Interesting observation. If Jesus had really performed such great miracles such as calming the storm, resurrection ... no writer would search for so weak as irrelevant, prophecy-looking verses from OT to prove Messiah's credential. It's not only redundant but also back-firing.
dear Crazyguy...
The jewish leaders didn't see the miracles, they only heard about them. That's why they came out to see what all the hub bub about this man was about.
There were ordinary people that saw the miracles but all of them? Not likely. In a crowd of 5000 the people nearest Jesus would have seen but not the ones farther away. Even if the message that Jesus multiplied the fish and loaves was relayed to every person as they received the food, without seeing the miracles for themselves I imagine there were a lot of people that didn't believe the message. In most cases the individuals who came to Jesus for a miracle said they "heard" He could help. So many did believe based on what they had heard not what they had seen but not everyone was so easily convinced. (Besides miracles in themselves wouldn't be the proof that Jesus was the promised Messiah if the people were expecting a national redeemer and strictly speaking, Jesus was a personal redeemer OT scripture says jews and gentiles).
The jewish leaders were not going to believe in what they had heard, they wanted to see. However, Jesus wasn't there to do miracles for everyone, He was sent to redeem israel. Because His mission didn't give the religious leaders a role in Israel's redemption, He was working against their agenda. He had to be cautious too. If He had done miracles specifically for the leaders and then told them that they had no part in the plan He would have been killed sooner than He was. Remember, the leaders held great sway over the jewish population. Notably, people with a reputation in the community were sneaking around so they wouldn't get caught with Jesus and lose their place in the community. He was a big deal and the leaders knew it. They weren't going to believe hearsay, and if they saw the real deal, they were going to kill the miracle worker because they didn't fit into His plan. The only way to cause them to believe was pointing out in the scriptures that Jesus was the promised Messiah. In that way the decision was between the word of God that they said they ALREADY believed in and their own consciences. Jesus said, "if you TRULY believed moses, you would believe in Me also...".
So, it was about proving from the OT that Jesus was the Messiah sent from God not specifically miracles to prove that He was sent from God.
One obstacle to their belief that Jesus was the redeemer was the fact that His redemption was an eternal spiritual redemption and that wasn't something the leaders in particular thought that israel needed. They weren't sinners like the gentiles...they were in fine spiritual condition as far as they were concerned...they were superior to everyone else as far as they knew. Over time the leaders made up their own laws that superseded Gods law. Don't eat with gentiles, don't touch gentiles, gentiles weren't allowed to be too near the temple. All of these laws had erected a wall of separation and that was not what their "calling" demanded. They were called to be a light to the nations, not exclude the nations. Jesus talked about that too. He said that believers were to let their light shine before men so that men would see it and would glorify God. Not, hide the light like the leaders had done and convinced their followers to do. See, that's OT stuff fulfilled too..."the people that sit in darkness have seen a great light". They didn't see the light of God with any help from the leaders, did they?
Crazyguy,
Interesting observation. If Jesus had really performed such great miracles such as calming the storm, resurrection ... no writer would search for so weak as irrelevant, prophecy-looking verses from OT to prove Messiah's credential. It's not only redundant but also back-firing.
Very good point. "Christ Jesus brought the dead back to life, he calmed a violent storm, and.....oh, yeah- So sayeth the Psalms that his legs would not be broken, that happened too."
