by Isambard Crater 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
dear cofty...
As long as we're talking about bible themes (which this OP is: prophesy leading to belief) sin has to be part of the conversation because it is the main theme of the bible. Whether you or I believe there is such a thing isn't really tangential to the discussion, is it?
"Mylaine - there is no such thing as sin." - Cofty
And therein lays the end of the Judeo-Christian beliefs...
There was no Adam or Eve, the world wide flood didn't happen etc. Therefore we know this nonsense about sin is just a story that the uninformed like to believe is true.
myelaine -
The crux of this thread, as far as I was aware, was that some things still make some of us think "hmmm, maybe...".
Therefore, pointing out that all these thoughts are based on a demonstrably fictional book, full of fictional ideas, is extremely relevant...
Dear myelaine,
There are various belief statements that can be said of Islam, Thor, Isis, any number of gods that would go the same way as saying "The very fact that you have an opinion ...."
Your statements show how closed your mind is...and how you try to spin it around on unbelievers.
So I am not interested in a new debate with someone like that. Good day.
OnTheWayOut...
The subject you mentioned wasn't isis or thor or any number of other gods though, was it? My response to you was specific to the person YOU alluded to. That you want to deflect(spin around) my assertion instead of finding merit in the truth of it says more about your closed mind than you're likely to admit.
Besides which. It takes an open mind to believe something fantastical and a closed mind to reject the same thing. Hello?!
Now you spin it around to accuse me of spinning it around. Classic.
"The very fact that [I] have an opinion about Jesus' claim to be God's Messiah PROVES the validity of the OT scripture that says 'the people have seen a great light'".
I have an opinion about Mohammed abd Vishnu and others....but I am not on a Muslim debate forum or other forum dealing with non-Christian cults.
People living before the NT was writen were without the Messiah yet they could have a clue about the contents of the OT. I left a group that insisted I need someone else to understand the Bible.
And by your own logic- The fact that people believe in any of the gods of the world is some kind of proof of their validity.
OnTheWayOut...
If the OT prophets hadn't said "the people have seen a great light" (speaking of the future) then I couldn't have quoted it as being fulfulled by you simply commenting about Jesus. The future that they spoke of has arrived and here you are talking about that light.
If the OT prophets hadn't said "the Servant will cause the gentiles to come to God" (speaking of the future) then I couldn't quote it as being fulfilled either but the fact that millions of gentiles have come to that God prove its fulfillment.
These aren't prophecies that were obvious at the time. Given the history of the israelites it's incredible that theirs survived as a distict culture up until Jesus' time let alone producing a Son that caused non-israelites to magnify their God. An improvement to the first phone was obvious, these prophecies being fulfilled was not obvious.
Greek and roman culture and their gods had far more to offer the gentiles at the time than Jesus seemed to. A hedonistic society isn't interested in eternal spiritual advantage, they're interested in pleasure now, not promises and persecution. No, it wasn't just a fluke that those prophecies were fulfilled...and they were fulfilled.
I wasn't talking about just any people knowing about the OT. I was talking about you but I can certainly include most of the western world. If Jesus hadn't been sent, the NT writers wouldn't have written about Him, the gentiles wouldn't have any reason to seek out the God the OT writers were talking about. The message of Jesus wouldn't have gone out over the world, you wouldn't have been a JW. The religious jews still don't proselytize, they're still exclusive, and people still aren't attracted to their God, per se. (People are attracted to the greco-roman version of Jesus...the one that has lost His jewishness). There is no reason to believe you or anyone else who is a not a jew would take a personal interest in finding out about the OT or the God it speaks of if it wasn't for the Servant that God sent. (Isaiah 52:13-15).
OnTheWayOut...
Let me put it to you this way...
Do you deny that jerusalem society was greatly and irreversibly impacted by a noteable person of jewish descent in the 1st century? (A luminary, so to speak)
Do you deny that it is that same person who was essentially responsible for gentile interest or belief in the God of the OT?
I'm not asking you to let your mind wander into territory where you have to see things through the eye of faith or see things in a "spiritual" sense. The only way to regard those 2 prophecies I mentioned as unfulfilled is to deny reality.
The specific prophecy about none of Jesus' bones being broken is a different matter, that prophecy being fulfilled is taken on faith. There is no concrete way of "measuring" the statement that they weren't broken, at this time.
Not only "not breaking His legs". There are many prophecies alleged in the New Testament to have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. In chapter 53 of Isaiah alone, we find multiple prophetic statements that have been applied to Him by the apostles.
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
