by Isambard Crater 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Yes, Vander...
I didn't reference that scripture intentionally. That scripture is regarded by christians as speaking about Jesus but by jews as speaking about the israelites. In other words, it's referrant and therefore truthfulness is in the eye of the beholder. The two scriptures I referenced in my argument are believed to be Messianic by both christians and jews, there is no added controversy I had to cut through before I unpackaged the statements themselves for unbelievers.
OnTheWayOut...
Duck and run...Classic.
And my answer would be.....they aren't talking about any real person/god......they are talking about light and personifying the principle of light......Heliopolis was also called "ON".....when we switch the light "on" and show up what was hidden in darkness.....we see the principle of light/Jesus/Osiris in action.......uncovering what was hidden.....an unveiling/apocalypse/revelation.....a revealing!
OnTheWayOut...
Duck and run...Classic.
Yeah fine. No matter what valid points are made, you will declare victory. So enjoy.
I just don't need to be another voice trying to tell you that various people interpret the Bible in various ways. It's already pointed out to you that some declare OT writings to apply to "Israel" and not "Messiah" (or the personification of the principle of light). But nope, it all points to Jesus. I am not going to bother joining the chorus because you go too far to say that my even talking about it, knowing about it, is proof that it is "from God." WOW, YOU WIN!
You are just too not ready to have real discussions. Nope, you win no matter what. The Bible proves the Bible is from God. It doesn't approve rape and subservience of women or slavery. Anywhere it couldn't be literal, of course it was symbolic. And of course it cannot be made to say anything as the atheists say, but only says what your Christianity says it says.
The Gospels were written several decades after this supposed Messiah Died, by anonymous writers . Why ?
Jesus, who came to fulfill the most important mission in human History, never wrote a word about himself. why ?
Jesus who performed so many miracles, were never known to the outside continents, until the Bible was put in print and that was several centuries later.
Why did all such things happen in a period when there were literally no scientific inventions at all, in a period of self proclaimed prophets, fradulant miracle workers, ignorance and superstition.
If only Jesus could come and perform his miracles now and sacrifice himself, there would be a live feed in all the media and the outcome would be much better
If only the Bible predicted that man would land on the moon, in the 20th century, instead of a Broken bone prediction, I would still believe in the Bible.
dear OnTheWayOut...
The bible is inarguably considered to be the holy text of christians and jews. It's not the holy text of any other religions.
I'm not arguing the fact that some people lift certain elements of the text to supplement their own "texts". Clearly mohammad did, the bahais did it, Hanged Man did it, it happens. At this point, I'm wondering why you think I shouldn't be giving priority to the theology that is obviously contained in the text. That being, jewish and christian?
Thank you. I am aware that there are CERTAIN scriptures that are controversial as to who they are referencing, within both the jewish and christian theologies. I'm the one that drew attention to the fact that there is that to consider as far as the prophecy of isaiah 53 is concerned. Not every OT text is contriversial, however, the two portions I cited are considered (by both jews and christians) to be referring to A messianic figure. There is no dispute there. The christians believe that messianic figure to be Jesus. The jews believe that it was not Jesus but someone else who has YET to be revealed. Again, there is NO controversy as to the fact that the text is talking about an individual messianic figure. There is no controversy as to what those 2 portions in isaiah I cited mean...as far as the messianic figure being a light (someone who illuminates the masses) and as far as the messianic figure causing the gentiles/nations to turn to the God of the OT. To my knowledge both jews and christians believe it is only ONE messianic figure that will accomplish these two tasks.
My argument is for the fact that both of those tasks were indeed accomplished by Jesus almost 2000 years ago. The prophecy has been fulfilled in Jesus even if the jews don't accept it.
If you're at all interested in knowing why the jews don't accept it, I can tell you but it has to be understood I'm not preaching to you, just laying down the facts from a biblical perspective.
Anyway...my reason for believing the 2 portions of scripture I cited can only point to Jesus is simple and logical. He was the first to cross the finish line according to those established rules. (Isaiah 9:1-2; isaiah 52:13-15)
love michelle
inarguable: certain or clearly true, not open to argument, doubt, or question.
Yeah, even Christians and Jews argue over it. But I know what you are saying. Still, the printed word of Watchtower is unarguably the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. So to be so exclusive as to who is allowed to argue a point is not acceptable to me. Good luck with that.
So, the fact that the OT is and has been considered by most people (with an opinion) to have sprung from the hebrew ethos IS something you'd argue?
AND, the fact that the NT is and has been considered by most people (with an opinion) to have sprung from the christian ethos is something you'd argue?
The floor is open to you. Please move forward with your argument against those claims.
You miss the point. I am not included in your argument group. You are saying that something is inarguable if we only stay exclusive to Christians and Jews.
I am saying that there is a group not arguing that something is a holy text and there is a group not arguing that Watchtower is the correct beliefs, but that doesn't make their claim "inarguable" if people outside the group want to argue about the text being holy or the Watchtower being correct beliefs.
I can find a group that unarguably declares the Bible to be words of men only. I could probably even find a group larger than the number of Christians and Jews in your group- the two thirds of the planet not part of your group. It matters not. It is not inarguable.
Really, I am arguing same old same olds here. Good day. I already gave you your victory. Good day. Sorry to be dragged back in.
