A balanced JW already has one foot out, even it they don't know it yet.
Thoughts on Leah Remini JW A&E special ...
by _Morpheus 138 Replies latest members private
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dubstepped
But abuse is abuse. You're waging a war in your comments fighting something that wasn't even said. Nobody said that this was every dubs experience. Nobody had time to get into literally every family's natural dysfunction behind the cult. People cam read in and think for themselves I'm sure. It was trying to expose the teachings of a cult, and all of that was based on their teachings. How people react has something to do with the way an individual was wired for sure.
My wife was on Twitter last night jumping in and helping. Exjws were chiming in who saw their own story for the first time ever. Normal fans of that show were speaking up blown away by the teachings of the dubs and shocked at the similar impacts of the two cults on the human psyche. It had a great impact.
Let's say that the examples given were the extremes only, who cares? Nobody on here cares if the stories on Scientology are the extremes. What is the drawback? Who would it hurt?
I think that if more people spoke out you'd see that these weren't as extreme as you think either. I have so many people wanting to tell their stories on my podcast that I can't get to them. We can't say what the average dub goes through because of the culture of silence. So much goes on that we don't know about. This show made just some of it known. They helped a lot of people last night.
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OneEyedJoe
You're waging a war in your comments fighting something that wasn't even said.
This seems to be a pattern for Simon lately.
And again, there were no solutions offered. All these terrible things - what do people think the solution is? What should happen? What should we do about it? The reality is that nothing can or should happen beyond existing laws being enforced when they are transgressed - people following stupid ideas are a consequence of having freedom to make poor choices but those freedoms are more valuable than any imaginary protection that would happen if they were removed.
The show is what's to be done about the cult. Informing people and sharing the stories of the victims of the cult is what we do about it. Inform the public so that JWs will be unable to recruit. Inform the public so that judges will be able to make an informed decision in custody battles when someone wakes up and it results in divorce. Inform the public so that pressure is put on lawmakers to pass mandatory reporting laws where they're absent and investigate the cult's compliance with them. Create outrage that the cult is tax-exempt and using the status only to abuse its adherents. The list could go on and on. Exposing the cult for what it is is the solution.
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Simon
Let's say that the examples given were the extremes only, who cares? Nobody on here cares if the stories on Scientology are the extremes. What is the drawback? Who would it hurt?
People seem to believe that a show about the negatives of the WatchTower can only be positive. I think having something to point to is good and valuable but there is also a risk that the WTS uses it as a talking point / way to reach the curious or interested.
But the point I'm making about the responsibility for belief and behavior is being lost on most people it seems so I'll try and explain it in a different way.
Claiming that what parents and other JWs do when they shun is just 'following orders' is a cop out and is illegitimate as a defence. The only person truly responsible if your parents decide not to speak to you are your parents. Unless someone is forcing them, they are making that decision. Even if it's based on a stupid belief, it's a belief they choose to hold.
Now, people seem to want the blame to rest solely with the originator of the belief and reason for them doing that. Suppose they weren't ever JWs but read a WatchTower - would the WTS still be responsible? Suppose they just read the bible and decided "hmmn, we can't let sally continue living her sinful life under our roof" ... is it the fault of the bible writers and scribes? Or maybe the people who installed the printing presses?
Where does the blame truly lie? You can probably find just about any crazy belief in some book somewhere - so does that mean that no one should be guilty of anything, because someone else wrote it and gave them the idea? No - they are influences at best, people are responsible for their own choices and actions.
It's an uncomfortable truth that the people to blame are the people who chose to believe and follow the stupid and unloving belief system.
Yes, there is some fault with those who teach the beliefs and do it for their own selfish reasons - they are loathesome. But trying to make them solely responsible is just as wrong as suggesting that the extreme experiences are representative.
I personally think that people shouldn't be given the easy get-out excuse of "oh, I have to shun you because they WTS told me to". When someone shuns you it is THEM that are choosing to shun you.
Unfortunately, we can't pick the family we are born into, only the ones we create - we only have control over ourselves and our children until they stand on their own two feet. If you would allow someone else to tell you not to speak to your own children and then smugly think you bore no personal responsibility for the hurt caused by that choice then I think it makes you a monster.
I don't want to give people the excuse to use. Make THEM responsible and they might change, absolve them of any fault and why would they?
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Pistoff
@Simon:
"when parents are teaching their children that they should refuse blood or should shun them if they left they (the parents) have to take some responsibility for what subsequently happens when things go wrong, don't they?"
Parents who teach their children to refuse blood and shun are only doing what leadership tells them to do.
I get the idea of individual responsibility (and I have owned up with my children) but that is the point of exposing what the core beliefs of WT are, and there are no beliefs that are more core than refusing blood to the point of death (and making martyrs of those who have, even small children) and shunning.
These are brand markers for JW's; they will never give them up.
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The Fall Guy
Excellent expose. However, a major opportunity missed in Part 2 at 11 mins. 31 secs. IMO.
This WT was quoted - w11 7/15 pp. 31-32 par. 16 - "The message is clear. Our love for Jehovah must be stronger than our love for unfaithful family members."
It should have been stressed that what the cult is really saying is this - "The message is clear. Our love for the organization must be stronger than our love for unfaithful family members."
Many active JW's still haven't woken up to the fact that 'Jehovah' and 'the organization' are interchangeable.
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LV101
"some of it known" -- the word 'some' is a joke considering all the rapes, abuse - children beat by inhumane parents (breeders) not to mention women/wife abuse. I thought it was excellent but very conservatively portrayed. Thank goodness for the Leah/Mike's, Barbara Andersons, of the world.
The governing goon squad should wear masks and never flap their tongues again. How embarrassing. They should be on comedy hr with their destructive, evil-god, rhetoric, lines, changed, of course.
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Pistoff
@simon:
"Claiming that what parents and other JWs do when they shun is just 'following orders' is a cop out and is illegitimate as a defence.
Agreed.
"The only person truly responsible if your parents decide not to speak to you are your parents. Unless someone is forcing them, they are making that decision."
Absolutely disagree.
The parents are influenced, and extorted, to hold the line, by WT leadership and elders.
If individuals are expected to be responsible (and I agree with this) what about leadership?
Is leadership not also responsible for reasonable policies?
This seems like an extension of an argument we are having in the States: does the president have any responsibility for his inflammatory rhetoric when it encourages the crazies to commit crimes?
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OrphanCrow
Simon, you just don't get it.
Unless someone is forcing them, they are making that decision.
That is the whole point - cults fall under your "unless" qualification and you are ignoring that in favor of making this into a political discussion on freedom of belief.
You are in over your head and you are ignoring the cult dynamic - which this show was entirely about.
Cult dynamics
Now, you can throw all the red herrings you want at this beast....but it isn't going to work. Give it up, Simon...herrings stink.
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Simon
Is leadership not also responsible for reasonable policies?
They are responsible for their failures and crimes. If they have poor procedures for handling child abuse and policies that make it more likely - they are guilty of that, but the person who commits the abuse is guilty of the actual abuse.
That is the whole point - cults fall under your "unless" qualification and you are ignoring that in favor of making this into a political discussion on freedom of belief.
Then no Nazi guard was guilty of anything because they were ordered to do things and simply couldn't disobey ... could they? There is no "unless" that the WTS has - they do no kidnap and kill people. You walk out the door and never go back and you're done.
You are in over your head and you are ignoring the cult dynamic - which this show was entirely about
No, I think accepting that the WTS has the control is to continue to play by their rules and within their system. It's the same as thinking you have to send a disassociation letter because that is what they want you to do or you have to attend a JC because that is how their system works.
If you promote the idea that the WTS has control then they DO have control and we're accepting it and we've lost. This argument that the WTS controls people's lives and we accept it has been tried and failed for at least 30-40 years as far as I can tell. Maybe it's time to try a different approach?
A better message is that the WTS has NO real control over your families actions and your family needs to wake up to that reality and until they do it is your family's choice whether they decide to speak to you or not just as it is for the millions of other people who have family issues completely unrelated to the WTS.
I simply can't understand why people want to prop up the WTS power structure! When you leave you are supposed to stop believing in their crap. Help your families by doing that, not by letting them use the excuse that the WTS controls them and you agreeing to it.