JW Father Kills Self and 12-year-old Son

by fjtoth 98 Replies latest social current

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  amac

  Rockin' good news!

  Yeah, I'm so happy right now!
• 

  fjtoth

  amac,

  I didn't intend to be insulting. To tell you that you're naïve is simply to tell it like it is. I just wish you would open your eyes, focus your memory, and get off your high horse. Part of the reason I left JWs after being in there for 50 years was because of observing all the hurt that was meted out to so many people due to the stupidity of COs and other elders. Many women never had a chance and simply accepted what they were told out of a sense of duty to be submissive to men said to be "appointed to their positions by the holy spirit."

  But I disagree that elders everywhere will tell an abused wife to stay with her mate.

  And I haven't said that this bad advice is given by all elders everywhere. But enough of it is given that it's foolish to deny that it originates in the influence of the WT Society.

  Again, I haven't had time to dig up my WT CD to look up all that is published on this, so I can't really continue my argument beyond my personal experience of being a JW for 29 years and ALWAYS understanding that a wife could and should leave an abusive husband.

  One very important factor you're forgetting is that elders receive letters that the rank and file never see. They also meet with the CO and DO at every circuit assembly and at other times. They attend KM school and other seminars arranged only for them. So there's a lot the elders have been told that you won't find on any WT CD.

  fjt

  PS: I'm glad you like my picture.
• 

  SPAZnik

  "However, I've noticed a couple comments that JWs tell abused wives to go back to their husbands. I've no doubt this has happened many times, but I would attribute this to the upbringing and current culture of those elders that said it, not as a directive from the WT. As long as I can remember, physical abuse was the only thing outside of adultery that the WT ok'ed as a reason to leave your mate. Knowing the elders where I grew up, they would support a sister leaving her husband due to physical abuse. It seems to me this problem should be attributed to the world society in general and it's only recent acknowledgement of the serious dangers of domestic violence. There's still a lot of backwoods folks who have some catching up to do." - amac

  Well, I agree with this: "There's still a lot of backwoods folks who have some catching up to do."

  Can't argue with that.

  I take issue with this. "I would attribute this to the upbringing and current culture of those elders that said it, not as a directive from the WT." (formatting mine)

  I used to think that way too. Now I see it a little differently.

  Okay, whenever the elders visited me, they were to be treated virtually as messengers from God.

  (cue angelic choir)
  Appointed by hooooooooly spiiiiiiiiiiirit. (lalalalaaaah) Representative of theocraaaaaatic ooooooooorder (lalalalalalaaaaaaaaaa).
  
  Seriously though, in EVERY hall i've ever been in. Backwoods, or city. Canada or the States. This arrangement itself was explicitly a directive from the WT. (So tell me again how an abused individual is to see clearly what is WT directive and what is a backwoods elders opinion?) All the scriptures about following their lead, respecting their position. I mean even this post I'm making right now still leaves me with twinges of that well inculcated feeling of doom that by speaking against "those taking the lead among us", i am truly "apostate" now and deserving of eternal death. Did you miss entire watchtower studies (and supporting scriptures) devoted to obeying the elders?

  So tell me, do the following comments by elders (on various occasions) count simply as "supportive" or
  "backwoods needing to catch up?"

  "We appreciate it that he corrected you on how you are sitting in that chair. We also think that it would show respect for theocratic order (reads scripture) and for the marriage arrangement (reads scripture) and for your husband as head of this household (reads scripture) if you would willingly comply with his wishes as to how you sit in your chair."

  hahahahahahhaha. i had a feeling i would one day find that stupidly funny.

  "Do not talk to anyone about your situation. Not even that one mature sister you confided in on two occasions. (Reads scriptures encouraging blind obedience to the elders and theocratic arrangement.) (Reads more scriptures about the womans place in the theocratic arrangement, basically bottom rung possibly a little above the family pet but this is uncertain). Now that we have told you not to talk to anyone and shown you the scriptural reasoning why, if you do it again, we can hold a judicial committee about it (reads scripture to support that). Do not talk to other women, got it? Come talk to us, we are here to help. That's what we're here for and we love you like a sister." That's a good girl.

  (wow, its kinda funny, now, to remember being told this. at the time i was overwhelmed with life and scared stiff working as hard as i could to obey and stay in what i was being told was god's favor.)

  "Marriage is a serious thing. (really!) (reads scripture to support that) Well, you technically can leave, (reads WT directive about LIFETHREATENING abuse being a cause for separation) but you could only be separated not divorced, (reads scripture to support that), can never remarry, (reads scripture to support that) and if in the process your husband then commits fornication/adultery, God may hold YOU responsible for putting him in that position, and you could end up disfellowshipped along with him.......But it's up to you and your conscience if you reeeeeally feel your life is at risk."

  Don't kid yourself. The elders have a book they turn to for direction from the WT on how to handle matters like this. They are trained to use the scriptures to support WT dogma, not to give their own opinions much.

  Knowing the elders where I grew up, they would support a sister leaving her husband due to physical abuse.

  Yes, I believe they probably would. After reading her the scriptures that say she can never again remarry since adultery was not the cause for the split. Totally supportive if you ask me.

  It seems to me this problem should be attributed to the world society in general and it's only recent acknowledgement of the serious dangers of domestic violence.

  And here i've been thinking that "god's people" were to be no part of the world! Silly me.

  SPAZ (of the feeling-a-little-sarcastic-today klass) :)
• 

  amac

  I didn't intend to be insulting. To tell you that you're naïve is simply to tell it like it is.

  LOL that's funny! Well I guess I didn't intend to insult you by calling you a jackass, just telling it like it is.

  I seem to remember other articles saying that a sister could leave an abusive husband, so obviously there was some room for elders to make personal judgements on this matter when giving advice. Since society as a whole has just recently started acknowledging the dangers of domestic violence, then a hardly think that the WT has a had a strangle hold on the bare foot wife in the kitchen way of thinking.

  If I am wrong, then the elders where I lived and live now are rogue elders who don't listen to the WT.
• 

  fjtoth

  amac,

  I can only shake my head in disbelief as I wonder what kind of dream world you were living in for 29 years. You simply have no idea how much hurt and misery has been caused to thousands of helpless JWs by official WT policy. If you are aware of it, and you should be, you choose to live in a state of denial. You would rather dismiss it because you simply can't conceive of the WT Society being any worse than the rest of the world.

  I'm even starting to wonder if you really were a JW. You sound more and more like a "Bible study" who never progressed beyond the propaganda your mind was spoon-fed year after year.

  You can go ahead and feel I'm mean-spirited if you wish. God knows and I know that I'm not. I know what I saw decade after decade, and I can't close my eyes to it as you seem to be able to do so easily.

  fjt
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  waiting

  Interesting thread - the problem is.........it's not black & white. leave/not leave.

  The average beaten/abused woman will leave 7 to 8 times before she permanently leaves the person who beats her. That's a lot of going back.

  Mommie/Wendy posted on this forum that she was a professional and had trained & worked with abused women & children. (She didn't state she was an LPN). When someone posted that their brother had just been thrown down the stairs by his father.........she encouraged the mother to take assessment, and if she didn't have a plan.....to go back with her children to that man. The woman did. However, some other people disagreed strongly. However again, it worked out for this woman until she could figure out what was best in her predicament. Big grey area.

  I well remember the WT being studied that a man should never hit/abuse his wife. And the answers given agreed with this until...............Elder Frank Bruce raised his hand and stated "We elders don't want to get into the middle of all domestic disputes. Now.....a beating doesn't include if a man just slaps his wife." (paraphrasing)

  And the other elders nodded their heads in agreement. His own wife kept her head down during his answer.

  waiting
• 

  shera

  I havent read the whole thread yet...but this is sad.(Really I hate reading stuff like this)

  Read it when I get the nerve up.
• 

  amac

  You simply have no idea how much hurt and misery has been caused to thousands of helpless JWs by official WT policy. If you are aware of it, and you should be, you choose to live in a state of denial. You would rather dismiss it because you simply can't conceive of the WT Society being any worse than the rest of the world.

  Because I disagree on this topic, I have no idea how much hurt and misery has been caused? I'm in denial? Do you always turn specific arguments into broad characterizations? What a silly old man.

  I'm even starting to wonder if you really were a JW. You sound more and more like a "Bible study" who never progressed beyond the propaganda your mind was spoon-fed year after year.

  Another great theory! Sorry to say you are wrong. I was a Bethelite and a pioneer for 6 years, raised by an elder, appointed MS at 18, gave public talks, stepped down before being appointed an elder. Is that enough street cred for ya?
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  berylblue

  Do people "with a brain" not have to look stuff up because they are so smart

  Precisely.
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  berylblue

  Sorry to say you are wrong. I was a Bethelite and a pioneer for 6 years, raised by an elder, appointed MS at 18, gave public talks, stepped down before being appointed an elder. Is that enough street cred for ya?

  Oh, gosh, I am so sorry. I had no idea to whom I was writing. With all those "credentials", you most certainly do know everything. My mistake.