Still,
Im curious what is the math?
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1
by hooberus 133 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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stillajwexelder
E=mc^2 but E also = hf where h is Planks constant - - so therefore hf = mc^2 and hence one immediately has an equation where frequency and mass are together and hey presto you have mathematically proven the dual nature of light -- because mass would prove the particulate nature and frequency would prove the wave nature
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hooberus
stillajwexelder said: it was what attracted to me to JWs in the first place - exactly that question -- who did Jesus pray to? --I had been asking the question for years to all the born-again types- -I never got an answer that made sense
exelder, The trinity teaches that Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are 1 God eternaly existing in 3 persons. Jesus has always existed as God (Psalm 90:2 with Micah 5:2). Jesus did not pray to the Father until He took upon himself an additional nature, that of a man. Jesus has two natures human and divine. Since all men pray to the Father, Jesus because he is a human prayed to the Father.
Keep in mind that the Trinity does not teach that Jesus and the Father are the same person (as the watchtower sometimes teaches). Hense Jesus as a man (human) prayed to the Father, as humans do.
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Luke 23:46
Though Jesus as a man prayed to the Father, Jesus as God received prayer
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon `the Lord', and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59 ASV
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Dean Porter
Hooberus,
you say that Jesus prayed to the Father because Jesus had Two Natures and it was because of his human nature that he prayed to the father. But surely if he still had Divine nature then he was still God , according to your understanding. Therefore you still have the problem where you have God praying to God. This does not make sense to me and the fact he had human nature as well does not negate this problem. Also,you suggest that The Watchtower sometimes teaches that the Father and Jesus are the same person. This is not a fair criticism. Having been associated with the Watchtower for 16 years (formerly having been a Trinitarian) I think I would have spotted that if it was the case. It maybe some JW individuals sometimes get confused and state that error but I think the Society are pretty clear that the Dogma is three persons in One God. There has been many an accusation of the Society setting up a Strawman but this time on this point I think you have set up a Strawman.
Dean. -
stillajwexelder
I am sorry Hooberus - I am not going to post on this subject anymore - it just the biggest load of trash - sorry if that is not an intellectual reply
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Dean Porter
Littletoe, you say that in 2 Cor. 13:14 it is " obvious " that it is The Father that is being referred to here as God. Can I ask you how it is that you come to that "obvious" conclusion ? Thanks Dean.
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herk
Hooberus,
I think it's an ultimate stretch when you claim that Stephen was praying to Jesus at the moment he cried out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." The context shows that at that moment he saw Jesus in a vision, and so it was appropriate to appeal to the one he loved and served as God's appointed Lord. That was no more a prayer than when Adam and Eve conversed with God in Eden and when Cain spoke with God after the fall. While there are a few texts that seem to suggest that prayers were offered to Jesus, honesty should compel anyone to acknowledge that there is some controversy in each case as to how the text should read. Jesus' instructions were that we pray to the Father, not to his Son.
Herk
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hooberus
Dean Porter said: Also,you suggest that The Watchtower sometimes teaches that the Father and Jesus are the same person. This is not a fair criticism. Having been associated with the Watchtower for 16 years (formerly having been a Trinitarian) I think I would have spotted that if it was the case. It maybe some JW individuals sometimes get confused and state that error but I think the Society are pretty clear that the Dogma is three persons in One God. There has been many an accusation of the Society setting up a Strawman but this time on this point I think you have set up a Strawman.
The watchtower has implied that those who believe in the Trinity believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person. The book "You can Live Forever in Paradise Earth" says (I am quoting from memory I'll post the exact quote later) "Because Jesus prayed to the Father, the two could not be the same person" (this implies that those who believe in the Trinity believe that Jesus prayed to himself). The Watchtower at times teaches correctly about what Trinitarians believe and at other times uses straw man.
The Trinity is often presented as being "three gods in one" see for example Knowledge that Leads to Everlasting Life. See also Let God be True
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hooberus
Dean Porter said: Hooberus,
you say that Jesus prayed to the Father because Jesus had Two Natures and it was because of his human nature that he prayed to the father. But surely if he still had Divine nature then he was still God , according to your understanding. Therefore you still have the problem where you have God praying to God. This does not make sense to me and the fact he had human nature as well does not negate this problem.Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). he is 100% divine and 100% human. He is both God and man. Son of God and Son of man. As a man Jesus prayes to the Father. His two natures exist simultaniously hense, He prayed to the Father as a divine man.
Since Jesus is a man the Father is his God:
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17
Since Jesus is God, he is the God of men:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 20:28
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hooberus
In what sense is the Father God?
"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17
"O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever." Psalm 136: 1-3
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
The Father since he is "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17 Psalm 136:1-3) and the "one God" as contrasted with the "gods many" (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) must be the true God Jehovah.
In what sense is the the Son Lord?
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:14-15 "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17"O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever." Psalm 136: 1-3
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
The Son since he is "Lord of lords" (Deuteronomy 10:17 Psalm 136:1-3) and the "one Lord" as contrasted with the "lords many" (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) must be the true Lord Jehovah.