by ignored_one 217 Replies latest social current
There is no way you can justify Capital Punishment using rational/scientific thinking.
Of course there is. For example, if someone is executed by the state they can commit no further crimes. This protects the lives of law-abiding citizens. Perfectly rational and scientific. I don't agree with capital punishment but there are plenty of arguments such as this one that need to be faced and can't just be dismissed with a wave of your hand.
Also, you seem to be trying to alienate and insult people that do not agree with you. . but I have noticed this is your style. I am offended by your usage of such terms as "baby-murderers" and such. I am all for discussing this with you, but I'd appreciate if you showed the same respect that you are shown.
I'm shown respect in this issue? Where? You're offended by the use of the term "baby murder"? I'm offended when snuffing out a human life is called a choice. Let's call it what it is...when there is an abortion...a human being dies...that's just the facts.
Aztec,
Sorry you think it's you who set the ground rules for this discussion. Comparing a human life to a tree seed is what's asinine. The very point of my statement was that there's no comparision between a germinated seed and a human fetus...NONE. That fetus is a human life...seperate from the mother.
Despite the fact I do not agree with the anti-choice lobby, and despite the fact that this guy’s actions were despicable, I can’t approve of his death by execution. If killing is wrong, killing is wrong; the minute you move away from this simple logic you get into areas where you have to make moral compromises. I also believe he would have been far more ‘punished’ (if this was the aim) by living a long life in confinement, rather than dying in what was no-doubt a state of extreme self-satisfaction over being a martyr to such a blatant nut-job.
Yeru:
but the average abortion is performed for birth control
Where is your proof of this? Obviously some people do this; they are stupid, but we can’t do anything about stupid or uneducated people. However, many abortions are due to contraceptive failures. You can put that in the same group as those who use abortion as birth control by choice, but those who use it as a last resort are clearly in another group to me.
If you look at the URL below, and do a little maths, you will see that the quoted rate of 0.021% is actually LOWER than the rate one would expect from contraceptive failures (which if every woman was having sex would be in the 0.1%-1% range). Do you have to make facts up to support your argument?
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/about/announcements/news/pdf/usatoday_rates.pdf
I've never understood the pro-babymurder point of view.
And I’ve never understood why some perfectly intelligent people fail to understand that thinking a twelve-week old foetus with less nerve tissue than a pet rat is a ‘human life’ is something that is wholly based upon religious belief. Even if you speak slowly they don’t understand. I suppose as they believe in a god that isn’t there they are equally eager to believe in a human that isn’t there.
Now I hope you are equally insulted as your pathetic (and inaccurate) pro-babymurder jibe attempted to insult those who are pro-choice. You are entitled to your own religious beliefs, but fortunately not to impose them on others. Your stance on abortion is a belief. I believe that if the religious people opposed to abortion ensured their country had an adequate health sex system (like say Holland) they would stop over 200,000 abortions a year happening. Unlike you I can back my beliefs with facts;
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fsest.htm
Curiously, those same people whose religious beliefs make them feel abortion is wrong are normally exactly the same people who oppose decent sex education at every opportunity. Thus we have an ironic situation where those opposed to something are making it happen more often by denying the people the resources to prevent it.
Silly, eh?
The mating of a male and female of the human species can only produce another human.
Incorrect. It can produce nothing; most matings I have been party too have produced NOTHING. It can also produce an egg that doesn’t implant, and it can produce an egg that implants but later spontaneously aborts; a significant portion of fertilised eggs never make it to implantation or beyond very early implantation; many spontaneously abort before they’d even be termed a embryo whilst they are shill a blastocyst.
If nature culls 'human live's with such enthusiasm, a human doing the same seems quite moral.
From the moment the two strands of DNA combine there is a seperate distinct human life there...
the right to choose for both men and women...is BEFORE this occurs...after it occurs...it's not a choice...it's a life, a human life...so...if it's ok for a woman to "choose" to kill her baby while in the womb...why not extend that "choice" to outside the womb.
Yes, but you are pretending that all human life’s are equal. You are in a trench with two buddies, and have to withdraw under fire. One has a bullet in the leg. The other has had a severe head wound (you can see his brains through the bullet hole) and is unresponsive to all stimuli although he is still breathing. You can carry one man on your back. I don’t even need to ask you who you’d carry, do I?
Having established human life is not equal, I once again draw your attention to the fact that although a twelve week-old foetus looks like a tiny little human being, it is less than an inch long and has less neural capacity than a pet rat.
If you equate that foetus with a new born, I do not share your opinion. Oh, and also, I though you were a Roman Catholic? According to the Pope the ONLY CHOICE humans have is whether or not to have sex, as any action taken to prevent fertilisation is a no-no for a good Catholic.
Alan F
As we’re playing semantics Alan, I’d point out that it is an absolute statistical certainty that some executions are carried out on innocent people, and a fact that some have been executed for crimes they did not commit. As this is the case, Englishman is quite right; the USA does legally murder their own citizens.E-man, America may be killing some of its most onerous citizens, but it isn't murdering them. Murder is illegal killing, but under certain circumstances all countries will legally kill people. "Legally", of course, meaning according to their own laws.
I suspect that most Brits had no problem with the U.K. murdering Argentinian citizens in the Malvinas some years ago (see how easy it is to use loaded language to prejudice an argument?).
Your Falkland Islands (that’s what the people who live their call it) example is not up to your normal standard too;
1/ John Doe doesn’t kill anyone, but is arrested and eventually executed for killing someone. He has committed no crime at any point, and it is quite possible that no crime was committed by police, attorneys, jury and judiciary in the process that results in his death.
2/ Juan Doe gets drafted and used as a soldier in an invasion, and ends up on the wrong end of a round of 5.56mm. Whilst he is not guilty of any crime (other than that of stupidity – draft troops versus professional soldiers is grounds enough for any man to surrender on sighting the enemy), the invasion of the Falklands was a breach of international law and the resultant military action took place with UN approval. As an accomplice to this crime, although personally innocent, he would have been shot whilst carrying out a crime.
Bad example. Although both were in the wrong place at the wrong time, one was invading a peaceful country and running around in combats with a gun. The other was JUST in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Avishai
I work in a group home for severely emotionally disturbed children, & have come across many similar cases. It is far more prevelant than you may know, especially among poor and uneducated women.
See my point re. sex education to Yeru.
Funky
So a foetus is a human being with the same rights as any other, unless its mother was raped? Surely murder is murder, and the foetus either has an unalienable right to life or it does not.
Nice point; I wish I could be succinct as you often are, but I’m not and probably never will be.
Nice point; I wish I could be succinct as you often are, but I’m not and probably never will be.
Succinct? Nah, I'm just lazy so I've learnt to get my point across in as few words as possible!
Abaddon,
I don't know where to begin with you...
Most abortions in the US are NOT done out of medical necesity..thems is just the facts. I've not met one single woman who had an abortion because her life was in danger...I've met many who aborted because it was "inconvenient to be pregnant".
I'm all for GOOD sex education which includes teaching abstinence...something Planned Parenthood opposses. Why is that.
This 12 week old "blob of tissue" is a distinct human life with it's own DNA profile. Why do you have such a hard time grasping this?
More later.
This 12 week old "blob of tissue" is a distinct human life with it's own DNA profile. Why do you have such a hard time grasping this?
Is having unique human DNA the criterion that decides whether something has human rights?
But I do know people that have used abortion as a form of birth control.
Yep I know a few cases myself Stacy.
There is no way you can justify Capital Punishment using rational/scientific thinking.
I like capitol punishment. Sure its been misused and abused, but i Like it. Nothing like sitting back and watching someone fry over a real nice cold beer.
I however am one of those wishy-washy people. I bounce between pro-choice and pro-life. If I have the meanings correct, I do believe a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, but I also believe that a child should have, at the very least, a chance to be born.
Close to how I feel. But this...
Comparing a human life to a tree seed is what's asinine. The very point of my statement was that there's no comparision between a germinated seed and a human fetus...NONE. That fetus is a human life...seperate from the mother.
Asinine indeed!
Now here’s a question for you.
Tell me since when did men have any choices in the matter? Where are their rights?
I have known of a couple situations where a woman has had an abortion even when the man said that he would take care of the baby once it was born. This has happened to a couple guys that I know and these aren't one night stands either. The women just didn't want to have/carry a child. The men in question had good jobs and seemed to be loyol, trustworthy model citizens.
Now, if the women choose to have the child they could do so whether or not the man wanted the child and then turn around and make him pay child support. How come the men don't get any say in this matter?...
Abaddon,
I don't know where to begin with you... Most abortions in the US are NOT done out of medical necesity..thems is just the facts. I've not met one single woman who had an abortion because her life was in danger...I've met many who aborted because it was "inconvenient to be pregnant". I'm all for GOOD sex education which includes teaching abstinence...something Planned Parenthood opposses. Why is that. This 12 week old "blob of tissue" is a distinct human life with it's own DNA profile. Why do you have such a hard time grasping this? More later. I'm with Yeru on this one guys. Yours Truly Merc'
Funky Derek:
So you think "end justifies means" is a rational argument?
And are you saying that killing someone is the only way to make sure that a person won't repeat a crime?
What about restricting a persons access to other people by keeping them behind bars? Life means life - sentences.
I repeat - there is no rational/scientific argument FOR the death penalty.
Closure, deterrence, revenge, are all semantically rooted in bad religion and out-moted psyhcological theories.
That's the nature of a discussion board. If you don't want to examine your opinions, you should probably keep them to yourself or talk only to people who share them.
You know what Derek I have discussions with lots of people in the real world and on forums daily without being put under the microscope. I find that there are people on this website who resort to name calling and personal attacks if you disagree with them in the least.
Now your suggestion that either I face my posts being examined or keep quiet is interesting in itself. Last night I was called a drama queen, naive, young and someone who doesn't get it. All comments in my mind were said as to be insulting. I have also been told that if I believe that abortion is murder then I should be willing to kill to stop it.
I think that a lot of people here are rude and do not want an opposing opinion. I have stated my opinions to be only that, opinions. I have not told anyone they are wrong in any of their beliefs. I find others opinions to be interesting and I always consider what they have to offer. I don't see that happening here. If you are not liberal then watch out.
Now lest I come off as a drama queen let me say that my feelings are not hurt. There is no one here that I know, I have no family or friends here, I'm just a visitor so I really don't mind being examined. I just find the general tone of this forum to be ruder than it needs to be and rudeness appears to be tolerated.
Proplog-
What about restricting a persons access to other people by keeping them behind bars? Life means life - sentences.
Surely you jest. People behind bars have been known to commit crimes as well. Prison brawls have killed innocent prison guards and other inmates who might be there for far lesser offenses. There have even been cases where different crimes (drug deals, murders, etc) were planned in prison and then brought to fruition by others on the outside.
Yeru-
Since it seems impossible to reason with you (on various matters). . .I give you this ----->
