Yet another example of how silly the Bible is...

by Abaddon 82 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    I think archaeologist and geologist confirmed that Mesopotamia has suffered several floods, and at least one catastrophic one. Mesopotamia is a flatland that is trough like in nature. If information that was compiled in the book of Genesis, about the flood came from Noah, why would we expect Noah to know anything about the Earth real size and geometric shape? This is well over 4000 years ago, clearly such knowledge was not in existence at the time.

    Certainly whoever wrote the flood story appears to have had no knowledge of the shape or size of the earth. I don't dispute that there may actually have been a catastrophic flood in the region of Mesopotamia on which the Gilgamesh epic, and hence the biblical account, was based.

    Such knowledge could have been in existence at the time. If God authored the bible, then he could have told his people about the way the world really was. This would have distinguished the bible from other collections of myths.

    It was indeed a gigantic flood, that inundated a large portion of Mesopotamia, and ark of that size seems to be appropriate,

    A wooden vessel 450 feet long? It may have been appropriate but it sure as hell wouldn't have been seaworthy.

    it would not be necessary for absolutely every species to be account for in the ark.

    It wouldn't be necessary for any of them to be in the ark if the flood wasn't global. People must have thought it was hilarious, an old guy building a huge boat, then trying to round up examples of each species in the area and enough food to feed them all for a year. When it started raining, everyone else would just have moved to higher ground while Noah and his floating zoo drifted around Mesopotamia.

    I don't necessarily hold to all the details in the flood account to be historically accurate, but generally true.

    Generally true, in what sense? Obviously not in the sense that there was a global flood, or the sense that there was a 450 foot wooden boat, or the sense that it was built by four men (and their wives) over a hundred-year period, or the sense that there were two of every kind of animal aboard, or the sense that the whole human race was wiped out except for eight people. There aren't many ways left for it to be true except allegorically, which is no different from saying it's a fairy tale.

    For this was not the purpose for which it was recorded. My faith is not altered in God's word. For it is clear scientific accuracy was in no way the common form of communication at the time genesis was compiled. We cannot compare our 20th century form of writting and reporting with ancient form to determine whether or not it is God's word. These were two different eras.

    So how would one determine whether it was God's word. Clearly, for you, it doesn't have to be true except in some ill-dfeined "general" sense. If it's not historically accurate, how is it different from any other mythology?

    The account of Adam and Eve I believe, is highly metaphorical, my reasons for this, is because of the scientific evidence which indicate organize civilization existed in the promised land many thousands of years before a literal interpretation of Genesis concerning Adam and Eve would indicate. The scientific evidence is very substantial, and after careful examination, as careful as a layman like myself can make that is. I see no reason to doubt the scientific evidence.

    Again, if it's not literally true, how is it any more true than any creation myth? The rest of the Bible seems to regard Adam and Eve as real people, so much so that the chronology of Jesus in the gospels goes right back to Adam. Now, perhaps that's meant to be "metaphorical" as well, but a metaphor for what exactly?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    frankie;

    Thanks for an interesting reply.

    Your argument that the Bible was written for the time it was written rather than for today and thus interpretation today will vary from interpretation when it was written is an accurate observation, which just underlines its human authorship.

    It ignores the argument that is prophecy can be told in a figurative form that can be decoded into a prediction of events, then history can also be put in figurative terms that would fill the requirement of the time AND carry a coded message that when decoded would validate the divine authorship of the Bible.

    The only alternative to some form of 'coded validation' not being used is that god wanted to give no proof. I have yet to have anyone explain to me why this would be so without contradicting supposed characteristics of god as revealed in the Bible.

    This just means that the Bible has nothing to do with god, other than accidentally (if there is such an entity) when 'nice things' are said, or that god is a joker who describes himself in his book one way and acts in another.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Derrick,

    The account of Adam and Eve I believe, is highly metaphorical, my reasons for this, is because of the scientific evidence which indicate organize civilization existed in the promised land many thousands of years before a literal interpretation of Genesis concerning Adam and Eve would indicate. The scientific evidence is very substantial, and after careful examination, as careful as a layman like myself can make that is. I see no reason to doubt the scientific evidence.

    Again, if it's not literally true, how is it any more true than any creation myth? The rest of the Bible seems to regard Adam and Eve as real people, so much so that the chronology of Jesus in the gospels goes right back to Adam. Now, perhaps that's meant to be "metaphorical" as well, but a metaphor for what exactly?

    If God were speaking inhighly scientific terms about creation, no one would understand it. Do you know what Absolute Reality is? Can God explain that useing human language, especially language as it was 3000 years ago? For this reason, and others stated in my previous posts, I think offers a reasonable explanation.

    As regards to the gospel accounts and the chronologies, I do not deny that they may have taken the Genesis chronology as literal, after all the apostle Paul said "we have partial knowledge, and prophesy partially... for at present we see in a hazy outlined by means of a metal mirror" 1Cor.13:9-12. If Genesis was written somewhere around the time of the exodus, that would put it about 1200 years before Christ. So then quite naturally, some misunderstanding of the "extent" of the metaphorical nature of Genesis very likely existed, I do not make the statement dogmatically, and may be in need of correction in my views. But I feel it reasonable because they definately did not have science back then to understand the what we now know, about the extent of man's origins.

    Abbadon,

    Thanks for an interesting reply. Your argument that the Bible was written for the time it was written rather than for today and thus interpretation today will vary from interpretation when it was written is an accurate observation, which just underlines its human authorship

    I believe the Bible is fully human, and fully God's word, I know that may seem paradoxical too many. I don't believe that men just acted as secretaries while God dictated, is much more complicated than that. I do beleive that we have to allow some human mis-conceptions to be in the Bible and that not every single word is to be taken as revelation fron God. Cases in point,, the reporting of wrong veiws of God expressed by Job's comforters, or Satan's temptations of Jesus, I could go on and on but I think you get my point.

    It ignores the argument that is prophecy can be told in a figurative form that can be decoded into a prediction of events, then history can also be put in figurative terms that would fill the requirement of the time AND carry a coded message that when decoded would validate the divine authorship of the Bible.

    I think a lot of so-called interpretations of Bible prophecy, are purely human endeavors. And not of same nature as Daniel and Joseph's interpretations.

    The only alternative to some form of 'coded validation' not being used is that god wanted to give no proof. I have yet to have anyone explain to me why this would be so without contradicting supposed characteristics of god as revealed in the Bible.

    The word of God is alive, but I don't think it offers any kind of scientific proof. My understanding of God, leads me to believe the proof of his existence is that not so much in his word, but in his creation all around us, and if a person is really seeking God, he will not be disappointed, even though it may seem to take some time before God reveals himself to that person. I also believe that God reveals himself differently and at the same time in many ways similarly to different people, according to His good pleasure.

    This just means that the Bible has nothing to do with god, other than accidentally (if there is such an entity) when 'nice things' are said, or that god is a joker who describes himself in his book one way and acts in another.

    That's your take on, one in which you feel is quite logical, I and the other hand have a completely different viewpoint, which I formed according to personal experience. I do think, that God will reveal His presence to those that really seeking him. This is my opinion according to personal experience.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan
    I believe the Bible is fully human, and fully God's word

    Perhaps, instead of reading the Bible, you might want to begin with say, a "dictionary".

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    If God were speaking inhighly scientific terms about creation, no one would understand it. Do you know what Absolute Reality is? Can God explain that useing human language, especially language as it was 3000 years ago? For this reason, and others stated in my previous posts, I think offers a reasonable explanation.

    I accept that certain scientific terms would have been wasted on a primitive audience, but why replace them with lies? It's like a parent who's asked by a young child where babies come from. Just because the child wouldn't understand the mechanics of sexual reproduction doesn't mean a parent has to tell them that babies are brought by a stork or found in a cabbage patch. Likewise, telling humans that their species popped into existence 6,000 years ago and all their suffering was caused by a talking snake and a piece of food is absurd, insulting and unncessary.

    What exactly is the difference between the "metaphor" of the Biblical creation account, and the "myths" of other creation accounts?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Runningman:There's no need to go on the offensive, insulting people's intelligence. This place is a learning and growing place, for all. If you truly believe that you are the font of all knowledge, and hence in a prime position to put down on people, then why are you wasting your time on a Forum like this? You should be in MIT!

    I'll further take on this point, that you made:

    1. The Bible claims that God said he would kill all life on earth in a flood. The Bible states this about as clearly as it is possible to state anything.

    I maybe just being a little pedantic, but it's the book of Genesis states this. As I earlier posed, that doesn't debunk the whole canon.
    Regardless of how little you respect the bible, it does contain some timeless principles (e.g. the "golden rule"). Sure, other works do too (I'm not contesting that), but on that point alone, there's maybe good reason not to write it off entirely as silly, useless, or such like.

    Given that a good proportion of the population of this planet have had some exposure to it, it is a reasonable framework from which to compare and communicate ideas. I suspect that Jesus may have been doing this when he quoted about Noah...

    FunkyDerek / Abaddon:
    Good posts, and nice reasoning.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I believe the Bible is fully human, and fully God's word...

    ...we have to allow some human mis-conceptions to be in the Bible and that not every single word is to be taken as revelation fron God.

    I understand your point of view, but I feel it is illogical, as the two portions of your statement show. If it's fully god's word, then how every word not be from god.

    The word of God is alive, but I don't think it offers any kind of scientific proof. My understanding of God, leads me to believe the proof of his existence is that not so much in his word, but in his creation all around us ...

    For a start I disagree that 'proof of his existence is ... in his creation all around us'. But that is a seprate argument that I am very happy to go into in another thread.

    But, in this thread we're talking about the Bible, and there IS no proof in the Bible; you're welcome to diagree and provide evidence to the contrary.

    What I understand from your post is that you believe in the god of smoke;

    ... if a person is really seeking God, he will not be disappointed, even though it may seem to take some time before God reveals himself to that person. I also believe that God reveals himself differently and at the same time in many ways similarly to different people, according to His good pleasure.

    Just as there is a so called 'god of the gaps', a god that doesn;t fit tradtional descriptions of god grafted onto modern scientific theory to fit in where there are no solid theories, so to there is an increasingly common 'god of smoke'.

    This god of smoke is all things to everybody; some people have an interfaith god of smoke, who doesn't care whether you are Hindu, a Christain, or nothing at all, just as long as you're a good person. Other people have a Christian god of smoke who doesn't mind what flavour of Christian you are as long as you're a good person.

    What unites these gods of smoke is that they are, once again, not so much summations of a provable entities character, but an expressed wish of an individual as regards what personality they would LIKE god to have.

    Now, if you're happy with a smorgasboard belief structure you weave yourself then that is great for you.

    But that is a far different thing from proving there is such an entity. The Bible doesn't do that, not does any other religious book.

    If you want to start a thread about how obvious creation makes god existence, go ahead. But I assure you it's a hard task to prove this, and you might want to keep your belief that this is so a personal one that you feel happy with and don't have or want to defend.

    However, your belief that 'god reveals himself to those who really look' is offensive.

    You prejudge anyone who doesn't believe in god as someone who hasn't really looked and who has therefore NOT had god personally reveal himself to them. You make it that persons FAULT that god hasn't revealed himself to them. Without any real knowledge of me or my life you assume you have a personal proof god is real is cause YOU tried and I didn't. How do you know that? How do you know that you don;t believe in god because you so desperately NEED to believe in a god that you've convinced yourself of its existence?

    You might feel this is fair, but your belief is just part of the modern god of smoke/smorgasboard belief structure of many modern believers in god who make their exact beliefs so unbased on any scripture that they must feel their personal opinions (or those of others) are some form of divine revelation. Like, where does it say all this? I don't know; I do know it says don't judge people, and that's what you are doing, event if that isn't your intention. And if where it says all this (if you can provide scriptual backing for your belief) is in such a flawed book, why should we assume that the bit you base this condemnatory belief on isn't as flawed and human and made-up as the rest ? Just on your say so?

    This is why the idea of god making its existence a matter of debate is so ridiculous. If our future depends on our conforming to some code but there is not enough evidence to subscribe divine authorship to that code, then refusing to conform to that code on the assumption it (along with all competing divine codes) is NOT divine, as there is no evidence is REASONABLE.

    The idea of a god destroying someone for making a reasonable decison based on facts is just silly; if god is like that he can go right ahead as I want nothing to do with such an entity.

    Rather than belief in such a joke of a god, I believe if there IS anything, then it is far beyond whatever petty concepts humans have built up (such as a god who hides and kills those who do not believe in him), and from the evidence on hand has had no personal communiaction with any one on this planet, and in fact may not even be our creator and heavenly father in the sense the wonderfully egotisitcal religions of man assume it would be.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Derrick,

    If God were speaking inhighly scientific terms about creation, no one would understand it. Do you know what Absolute Reality is? Can God explain that useing human language, especially language as it was 3000 years ago? For this reason, and others stated in my previous posts, I think offers a reasonable explanation.

    I accept that certain scientific terms would have been wasted on a primitive audience, but why replace them with lies? It's like a parent who's asked by a young child where babies come from. Just because the child wouldn't understand the mechanics of sexual reproduction doesn't mean a parent has to tell them that babies are brought by a stork or found in a cabbage patch. Likewise, telling humans that their species popped into existence 6,000 years ago and all their suffering was caused by a talking snake and a piece of food is absurd, insulting and unncessary.

    I liked your illustration BTW, and I'm curious, what should we as parents tell our children about Santa Claus?

    Most of us recognize the harmless nature in these stories that parents tell thier children, and realize that eventually the parent will explain to the child the truth or the child will find out on its own. There's nothing evil or devious about parents telling these stories,, that's why so many people who put high-value on truth still tell these stories to their children even though they know they're not true. They see them as absolutely harmless. Maybe they remember the fun they had, when they as children sat on Santa's knee told the Santa Claus all the things they wanted for Christmas, and so don't want them to miss out on this relatively happy time in the thier lives by finding out too early that there really isn't a Santa.

    What exactly is the difference between the "metaphor" of the Biblical creation account, and the "myths" of other creation accounts?

    Metaphors abound throughout the Bible, because that was the common way of speaking in the Near East back then, they didn't have words for abstract thoughts until the Greek culture and language dominated the Near East, for that reason they aways had to paint a picture, that's why they often told stories, that were not in themselves true, but the message conveyed inside story was true. That was just the way language was back 2000+ years ago. The study of ancient writtings lets us know that was the common form of communication.

    Myths, also developed from this common form of communication. In fact many scholars of the Bible, beleive that God may have taken some of the common myths, and changed around some of the details to fit his purpose.

  • rem
    rem

    Frankiespeakin,

    Metaphors abound throughout the Bible, because that was the common way of speaking in the Near East back then, they didn't have words for abstract thoughts until the Greek culture and language dominated the Near East, for that reason they aways had to paint a picture, that's why they often told stories, that were not in themselves true, but the message conveyed inside story was true. That was just the way language was back 2000+ years ago. The study of ancient writtings lets us know that was the common form of communication.

    Can you provide some more information on this? I've not heard this claim before.

    Thanks!

    rem

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Abbadon,

    Now, if you're happy with a smorgasboard belief structure you weave yourself then that is great for you. But that is a far different thing from proving there is such an entity. The Bible doesn't do that, not does any other religious book.

    There is no absolute proof of God's existence, or his non-existence. As I said before I don't think you can use the Bible to prove God's existence, and neither can you use natural science to prove God's existence. And by the same token neither can you use natural science to disapprove God's existence because quite simply it's out of the domain of natural science to speak on such matters, using science in such a way is a farce.

    If you want to start a thread about how obvious creation makes god existence, go ahead. But I assure you it's a hard task to prove this, and you might want to keep your belief that this is so a personal one that you feel happy with and don't have or want to defend.

    Belief or nonbelief in God, is purely subjective, there is no test one can perform to demonstrate either belief. You look at creation and you see no god, I look at creation and I see god, it's all according to our personal bias.

    However, your belief that 'god reveals himself to those who really look' is offensive.

    I've really did not mean to be offensive, I wasn't implying that you not looking, you really might be I don't know, I'm not your judge, and so when I offered that statement I wasn't trying to judge you in any way or to be offensive, it's just that I strongly feel if you are looking for god you will find him. Please don't take any offense because that's not why I said what I did.

    You prejudge anyone who doesn't believe in god as someone who hasn't really looked and who has therefore NOT had god personally reveal himself to them. You make it that persons FAULT that god hasn't revealed himself to them. Without any real knowledge of me or my life you assume you have a personal proof god is real is cause YOU tried and I didn't. How do you know that? How do you know that you don;t believe in god because you so desperately NEED to believe in a god that you've convinced yourself of its existence?

    Please don't take offense, I don't mean to judge anybody, I offered my statement not as a judgment of you or anybody. I offered it solely as a defense for God, and not as a judgment for those who don't believe. For I believe that God is pure and holy in everything he does, even though we who have limited intelligence, might not think so. Please notice I said "we" and not "you".

    You might feel this is fair, but your belief is just part of the modern god of smoke/smorgasboard belief structure of many modern believers in god who make their exact beliefs so unbased on any scripture that they must feel their personal opinions (or those of others) are some form of divine revelation. Like, where does it say all this? I don't know; I do know it says don't judge people, and that's what you are doing, event if that isn't your intention. And if where it says all this (if you can provide scriptual backing for your belief) is in such a flawed book, why should we assume that the bit you base this condemnatory belief on isn't as flawed and human and made-up as the rest ? Just on your say so?

    The reason why I commented on this thread, was not to defend my beliefs, but to defend God's word the Bible. I know the fundamentalist, would not consider my defense very good, as well as the atheists. Nonetheless, I have thought long and hard about these things for quite some time, your thread is a subject in which I can become rather chatty. And so I figured I'd throw myself into the fray and see what happens.

    Actually I think it's good when people that have different opposing ideas get-together in a kind of mental tug of war that require a lot of thinking. I think good things come of it sometimes. And so I offer my opinions that are contrary to yours, and you retort back with counter arguments, that make me think, and all the while I think progress is being made on both sides, for argument makes us concentrate, rethink our position, and correct any flaws(hopefully).

    This is why the idea of god making its existence a matter of debate is so ridiculous. If our future depends on our conforming to some code but there is not enough evidence to subscribe divine authorship to that code, then refusing to conform to that code on the assumption it (along with all competing divine codes) is NOT divine, as there is no evidence is REASONABLE.

    I think the way God has done things, to be flawless, and demonstrates a wisdom that is far beyond our "ken". When you can invent the laws of the universe, that work as harmoniously together as to produce life, like this universe,, then maybe you might be to position the call God ridiculous, but not before.

    The idea of a god destroying someone for making a reasonable decison based on facts is just silly; if god is like that he can go right ahead as I want nothing to do with such an entity

    . Rather than belief in such a joke of a god, I believe if there IS anything, then it is far beyond whatever petty concepts humans have built up (such as a god who hides and kills those who do not believe in him), and from the evidence on hand has had no personal communiaction with any one on this planet, and in fact may not even be our creator and heavenly father in the

    Now by "petty human concepts", to be fair and honest can yours be included in that term as well as mine???

    I don't claim to know what God's final judgments will be, for all I know there might be universal salvation.

    The way I look at it is this way, we will have to stand before the throne of God for his judgments on us "individually", those who have "genuine faith" in Jesus Christ will be given a favorable judgment. As to how God will make that judgment I don't have foggiest idea. And since I believe that God is love I feel that it will be entirely fair and in harmony with his personality as expressed in the personality of Jesus Christ when he walked this earth. Remember Jesus words when he was on the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do", this makes me think that forgiveness, and mercy, will predominate, to what extent I do not know and niether does any preacher of the Gospel, even though he may say otherwise.

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