Thanks for the information EP. I watched some of his recent videos and got creeped
out a little when he refers to his “group” as “The Children of God”.
In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...
by EasyPrompt 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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PetrW
@EasyPrompt
The plagues/trumpets/bowls of Revelation are all depicting those events at slightly different angles.
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The subject of the chronology of Revelation is vast and many areas would need to be addressed. Therefore, just a brief comment on why I think the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, follow one another as they are described.
Two reasons: 1. the direct description that an event block is the last, which allows one to argue that something must (temporally) precede it, and 2. the internal references to the events, where the appearance of descriptions of the same characters (e.g. the appearance of the Beast) in two different time events, presupposes that the character in question, already exists.
On point 1.) In my view, this is due, first, to the fact that, e.g., in Rev 21:9, the plagues that took place within the 7 bowl block are identified as the last ones. This also corresponds exactly to the announcement in Rev 15:1.
On point 2.) The seals have ordinal numerals (except the first), but then the second, third, fourth...
In Rev. 6:12 the 6th seal is opened, and according to Rev. 7:1, within this 6th seal, 4 angels are commanded to "hold the 4 winds from the 4 corners of the earth" "until they seal (144000)" (Rev. 7:3). The sealing is still going on at the time of the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:1), where the locusts are told not to harm the people with the seal (Rev. 9:4). And according to Rev. 8:1, the 7th seal is opened in order, followed by the giving of the 7 trumpets, 7 angels (Rev. 8:2, 6). The angel with the trumpet is marked directly by a serial number: first, second, third...
And according to Rev 9:14, the angel with the 6th trumpet is directly told to release the 4 angels mentioned in the 6th seal (Rev 7:1). With the 6th trumpet, the sealing of the 144000 ends. But yet the 4th trumpet announces 3 woes that run concurrently from the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:12 - the first woe has passed, two more to come), within the 2nd woe or 6th trumpet, it is announced that out of the abyss, the Beast will ascend (Rev 11:7) and the second woe ends in Rev 11:14. So the 3rd woe lasts from the 7th trumpet onwards, with the appearance of the Beast and all the accompanying scenes, so that, for example, the 6th bowl (the block of the last 7 woes), is poured out on the throne of the Beast. Which is only possible if the Beast has already come out of the sea.
This is a small outline of how I understand the chronology of Revelation. It's based on a few assumptions, which I won't elaborate on here, but again, simply: I have a timeline and I write all the major events in there, and I do so by thinking that Revelation has two main parts: announcement and action. Above the timeline I write the announcement, below the timeline, then the action. Something is announced to the angels and the action only occurs some time later (either a verb in the future tense is used or just some internal reference to a subsequent/preceding event there).
In general, I would describe the chronology of Revelation as a linear, unidirectional chronology that will follow the main supporting timeline: the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls.
The digressions to the Beast and to Babylon the Great do not disturb this order.
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EasyPrompt
"jeesus--ive heard it all now. Angels will be cannibals !"
@stanlivedeath, for angels to be "cannibals" they'd have to be eating angels.
No one said angels would literally be "eating" anybody. It is figurative, meaning the bad guys will be dead, and the angels will take part in making that happen.
"i can understand why you got disfellowshipped. You must have been a sheer joy in your congregation."
How kind of you!😜
For your information, I was still a GB/FDS "worshipper" at the time of my disfellowshipping. I still believed in their false doctrines at that time regarding 1914 and other things. The reason I was disfellowshipped was for telling on abuse in the congregation. The elders said that telling on an elder and warning others in the congregation is "reviling and causing divisions".
(You can read about some of the experience on this link if you want...https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6553089276903424/three-amish-bishops-who-told-woman-rescind-protective-order-against-husband-guilty-intimidation)
It wasn't until after they disfellowshipped me that I began researching and questioning other doctrines of the WTBT$.
Why are you on this site ? I think you've been on here previously.
I've only been coming on any forums since this past year. Why am I here? I don't know. I'm bored. I am married to someone who is still PIMI and it's difficult. We have kids and in order to protect them from the stuff in the congregation we had to take a stand on some things. I won't go into the details, but it's kinda nice to come on here and talk and fool around a little with silly videos and talking about the Bible. I am a homeschooling mom and when I got disfellowshipped I was instantly cut off from everyone I knew. I had been in for over 20 years. I was formerly very active in the congregation and in the ministry so had tons of socialization. Went to almost none in short order when I didn't bow to the elders on the reporting abuse issue. I still have faith in God and the Bible, but I also recognize that just because another person doesn't doesn't make them "bad association". There are a lot of people who claim to have faith in God and the Bible and yet they are "bad association" like that Eric Wilson guy, or Robert King, or Pearl Doxsey, etc. I've learned that quickly since being out of the JWBorg.
Anyway, that's it in a nutshell. Why are you on this site, @stanlivedeath?
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PetrW
I will try to simplify it even more to the most basic points:
- The last, 7th seal, also marks the opening of the 1st trumpet (Rev 8:1). Seals and trumpets, therefore, cannot be parallel time events. They are blocks of events that build upon each other.
- If the 6th trumpet announces that the Beast is to come up out of the abyss (Rev. 11:7), and we know that he is to reign for 42 months before going into destruction, then this also means that by the time the 6th bowl is poured out on the Beast's throne, the Beast must have already "come up" out of the sea and, by the same token, not yet gone into destruction. This again means that the bowls follow the trumpets.
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EasyPrompt
"The subject of the chronology of Revelation is vast and many areas would need to be addressed."
Genesis 37:5-11
"Later Joseph had a dream and told it to his brothers, and they found further reason to hate him. He said to them: “Please listen to this dream that I had. There we were binding sheaves in the middle of the field when my sheaf got up and stood erect and your sheaves encircled and bowed down to my sheaf.” His brothers said to him: “Are you really going to make yourself king over us and dominate us?” So they found another reason to hate him, because of his dreams and what he said. "
"After that he had still another dream, and he related it to his brothers: “I have had another dream. This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me.” Then he related it to his father as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him and said to him: “What is the meaning of this dream of yours? Am I as well as your mother and your brothers really going to come and bow down to the earth to you?” And his brothers grew jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind."
Joseph had two dreams, but they meant the same thing. They depicted the same event from two different angles.
In Genesis chapter 40, Joseph interprets the dreams of the baker and the cupbearer.
"So the chief cupbearer related his dream to Joseph, saying to him: “In my dream, there was a vine before me. And on the vine, there were three twigs, and as it was sprouting shoots, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. And Pharʹaoh’s cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes and squeezed them out into Pharʹaoh’s cup. After that I put the cup in Pharʹaoh’s hand.”
"Then Joseph said to him: “This is its interpretation: The three twigs are three days. Three days from now, Pharʹaoh will bring you out, restoring you to your office, and you will put Pharʹaoh’s cup into his hand as you did before when you were his cupbearer...
"When the chief baker saw that Joseph had interpreted something good, he said to him: “I too was in my dream, and there were three baskets of white bread on my head, and in the top basket, there were all sorts of baked goods for Pharʹaoh, and there were birds eating them out of the basket on top of my head.”
"Then Joseph answered, “This is its interpretation: The three baskets are three days. Three days from now, Pharʹaoh will behead you and will hang you on a stake, and the birds will eat your flesh from you.”
"Now the third day was Pharʹaoh’s birthday, and he made a feast for all his servants, and he brought out both the chief cupbearer and the chief baker in the presence of his servants. And he returned the chief cupbearer to his post of cupbearer, and he continued to hand the cup to Pharʹaoh. But he hanged the chief baker, just as Joseph had interpreted to them."
Joseph interpreted the dreams by means of God's holy spirit. He said "Do not interpretations belong to God?" Then he explained that the twigs were figurative. The number three was literal. In three days, the cupbearer would return to his position as cupbearer. The baskets of bread were figurative. The number three was literal. In three days the baker would be killed. Both dreams involved three days. They were depicting the same time frame from slightly different angles.
Genesis 41:1-7
"At the end of two full years, Pharʹaoh dreamed that he was standing by the Nile River. And there, coming up from the river, were seven fine-looking, fat cows, and they were feeding on the Nile grass. There were seven other cows that looked ugly and thin coming up after them from the Nile, and they stood alongside the fat cows by the bank of the Nile. Then the ugly, thin cows began to eat up the seven fine-looking, fat cows. At this Pharʹaoh woke up. Then he went back to sleep and had a second dream. There were seven ears of grain coming up on one stalk, full and choice. And growing up after them were seven ears of grain that were thin and scorched by the east wind. And the thin ears of grain began to swallow up the seven full and choice ears of grain. At this Pharʹaoh woke up and realized that it was a dream."
Joseph, by means of God's holy spirit, explained the dreams. The number seven was literal; it meant seven years. The cows were figurative and the wheat was figurative. There would be seven years of plenty and seven years of famine. The dreams were depicting the same event from slightly different angles.
It is the same with Daniel's visions and the visions of Revelation. They are talking about 3 1/2 years ("time times and half a time", "1260 days", "42 months", "a short time".) The years are literal. The plagues, the bowls, the trumpets, are all figurative. They are all depicting the same time frame (execution of God's judgments during that time) from a slightly different angle. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to, but when you see the UN attack all religious institutions you can know that the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation has begun. It is by means of God's holy spirit that these things are revealed.
Daniel 2:29-30
"...the Revealer of secrets has made known to you what is to happen. As for me, this secret was not revealed to me because I have greater wisdom than anyone living; rather, it was to make the interpretation known..."
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PetrW
I also think Joseph's dream in Egypt really helps to resolve the chronology of Revelation. But I interpret the dream a little differently: the first 7 years, the fat years when they reaped such a great harvest that they stopped counting it afterwards, is the period between the 1st seal and the last 7th trumpet. The locust attack, i.e., the 1st woe, lasts 5 months, and I think that's an important timeline, that each event from the 1st seal to the 7th trumpet will last about half a year.
The 7th last trumpet, then, initiates the period of the last 7 years. A time of symbolic famine, misery and oppression. The reign of the Beast, the persecution of the saints, the destruction of Babylon the Great. And if those days had not been cut short...
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EasyPrompt
No, the dreams Joseph interpreted have nothing to do with the time periods discussed in Revelation. The Bible does not imply that they are related. The point of similarity is that some things are literal and some things are figurative. Also that the dreams were repeated in a slightly different way to show the same event from a different angle.
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stan livedeath
@Easy Prompt
" Why are you on this site, @stanlivedeath?"
just an old habit now.
I hadnt realised you are a woman--interesting bio.
May i offer a suggestion--? Please lay off quoting the bible--its of no interest to hardened atheists like me--and numerous other members on here.
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EasyPrompt
@stanlivedeath, I am an ex-atheist myself. Before I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses I got my degree in anthropology/archaeology and was an ardent preacher of evolutionary theory.
I do appreciate the way you asked regarding not referencing Bible scriptures, so thank you for being polite about it. But I didn't listen to the elder body when they told me to shut up. I know there is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. I kept silent for so long regarding so many things. I am very appreciative to be able to speak here.
I try to avoid threads where I know the scriptures are not as appreciated, but at the same time I have lost my fear of man at this point, so if anybody gets offended and throws an insult my way, I really don't care anymore. I've heard it all already. I have become calloused to extremely abusive speech in other settings, so hearing less-hurtful words here directed my way really doesn't phase me anymore.
But thank you for still talking to me even though we have different belief systems.🙂 I respect your freedom to believe as an atheist even if I don't hold that belief in common with you any more. There are still many things we do have in common, and it's nice to build on those things.🌷
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PetrW
@EasyPrompt
Okay, I guess we have a different interpretation. But to me it is obvious that the continuity of the seals and trumpets is provided by the text of Rev 8:1nn. Of course, that's not the only reason I think the events follow, but I'd like to hear your opinion, at least on this particular passage (Rev 8:1nn).