In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Duran

  PetrW:

  The interesting question is when the event announced in trumpet 6 will begin: for Rev 11:2 uses futurum for "trampling" and that it will last 42 months. And in Rev. 11:3 it is written, again using futurum, that "a (suggestion) will be given" to the two witnesses to prophesy (again futurum) 1260 days. For completeness, I add that the second woe ends in Rev. 11:14, and only then, the 3rd woe occurs, at the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet (see also Paul).
  In my opinion, the two witnesses begin preaching shortly after the 7th trumpet sounds, that is when the 1260 days begin to be counted.

  The 2nd woe that occurs with the 6th trumpet has to do with the trampling for 42-months. This time period ends before the 3rd woe/7th trumpet is blown. Why would you think that the two witnesses begin preaching after the 7th trumpet?
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  PetrW

  @ Duran

  Good question!

  Why will the two witnesses not preach until after the 7th trumpet? I think the answer is in Rev 11:7: they are to preach and the Beast of Abyss will end their preaching. According to Rev. 17:8, the Beast comes out of the abyss and is, I believe, identical to the Beast of Rev. 13:1 (the reason for the identical beast - aside from "cosmetic" differences in description - is that this Beast comes out whole with its heads and also goes whole into the "lake of fire" in Rev. 19:20).

  This means that the two witnesses have to preach for 1260 days, and sometimes at the end of their preaching ("they finish preaching" Rev. 11:7) the Beast appears for 42 months, which at the beginning of the reign, destroys the two witnesses.

  This is probably obvious to you, but like you, I have addressed the question, don't the 1260 days begin at the time of the 6th trumpet (2nd woe)?

  The decision for the 1260 days only beginning at the time of the 7th trumpet, in my opinion, lies in the use of the future tense for the verbs "prophesy" or "trample". Therefore, I have placed the beginning of "prophesying" only in the 7th trumpet.

  I explain it another way: in the broader context of the chronology of Revelation as I understand it, if I add up the 1260 days (sermons) and 42 months, I come up with a length of these events of about 7 years. Okay, but what about the preceding period? As has been discussed here, I consider Joseph's dream in Egypt to be "eschatological": Ex 41:49 describes that in the first seven years, the "corn" (= sons of God) was like "sand in the sea" that they stopped counting them. In Ex. 41:50 "before the year of famine began", two sons (=two witnesses) are born to Joseph. Then sets 7 years of famine...

  The total time from the hanging of the four (angelic) horsemen to the destruction of the Beast would be about 14 years. Which also corresponds to the requirement, so well known in JWs-theology, that the generation "shall not pass away". According to Matt. 10:21, the father is to deliver the child and the children, his parents, to death. It does not say (though it probably does!) that grandfathers their grandchildren or that grandchildren their grandfathers.

  The 14 years or 7 years for the harvest* also suggests the duration of the individual breaking of the seal and trumpet: in the 5th trumpet the torment by the locusts is described (Rev 9:5;10) - it is to last 5 months. I infer from this that it is roughly a total of 6 months for the individual seals and trumpets. If I add these six months together from the first seal to the 7th trumpet, it is the 7 years. Some clue to the "half-year" duration is found, I believe, in the text of Rev. 9:15, where the angel is prepared for the hour, day, month, and year. The event is to take place within a year, not e.g. seven years or 50 years (Jubilee).

  * The cleansing and gathering of the last of the harvest (144,000) and the gathering of all others who show the slightest humanity (like the thief on the cross) or just obey(!), like the 276 people who were with Paul in the boat (Acts 27:37), then likewise from the world and from the power of the Beast, all people will be saved. All the saved, including the 144,000, will be as the sand in the sea, these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation... if the end comes anytime soon, then I think billions will survive...
• 

  FedUpJW

  144,000-literal or figurative?

  It DOESN'T matter! You and I ain't part of it!

  A "great crowd" which no man was able to number? Now that's funny. Especially given that the WT has in fact put a number on them today. They are the baptized JW's who in their own literature are claimed to be the ONLY ones worthy of any salvation. Now "nu-lite" says that even death (the penalty for sin) does not pay that debt any longer. To buy into the ever changing WT interpretations of anything is a pretty lame way to live.
  
• 

  Duran

  PetrW:

  Why will the two witnesses not preach until after the 7th trumpet? I think the answer is in Rev 11:7: they are to preach and the Beast of Abyss will end their preaching.

  Deathstroke on beast (in the abyss)

  Beast comes out of abyss (deathstroke healed)

  At this point beast gets its 42-month authority (Rev 13:5) and corresponds with Rev 11:2,3

  The two witnesses are killed during the 2nd woe (6th trumpet), which when it is said to have past, then the 3rd woe comes (7th trumpet)

  3rd woe will cause beast to be thrown into lake of fire, his 42 months authority will have ended by that time. 3rd woe is Jesus coming at Armageddon. That is when the Kingdom comes. (Rev 11:14,15)
• 

  PetrW

  @Duran

  As I wrote to you, I rather decided to start in the 7th trumpet.

  The chronological framework I described to you is my working hypothesis ✌️😎 It's not dogma: I turn on my own "new light" quite often 😁

  On the death blow: honestly, so far still in exploration. As with other entities, one needs to research the history of Christian tradition, i.e. how and who commented on these passages and when. Compare that with modern interpretations. To parse the text... That's quite time-consuming...

  So, so far, I'm thinking that the two witnesses will deal the blow (the Beast will make war with them), but the pouring of the bowl on his throne is also a possibility. But I don't know...

  The Abyssos, or prison, is - as I understand it - open from the 1st woe, when the locusts come out of it. Then the horses and finally the beast. I don't think the abyssos caused the wound. But again, I don't want to dismiss it, it's an interesting consideration - especially in the context of Babylon the Great (on the identity of Babylon the Great, later...).
• 

  Anony Mous

  5 pages and no answers to the original questions, except illusions of secret revelation which people seem to have copied straight from WTBTS publications.
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  EasyPrompt

  Hi Duran🙂

  Revelation 1:10

  
  

  "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet..."

  
  

  Revelation 4:1

  
  

  "After this I saw, and look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet..."

  
  

  Christ's voice from heaven as the executioner of God's judgment is likened to a trumpet. After he is enthroned, he rides vigorously to execute God's judgments, depicted as plagues/thunders/bowls/trumpets.

  
  

  The trumpet at Revelation 8:7 talks about hail. So do these other places in Revelation...

  
  

  Revelation 11:19

  
  

  "And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail."

  
  

  Revelation 16:21

  
  

  "Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great."

  
  

  The trumpet at Revelation 8:8 talks about the sea turning into blood. So does Revelation 16:3 when talking about the second bowl...

  
  

  "The second one poured out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood like that of a dead man, and every living creature died, yes, the things in the sea..."

  
  

  It's the same idea with all the trumpets. They match other visions in Revelation. The locusts/charging cavalry goes along with the second horseman and the attack on Babylon the Great. Revelation 9:14 and the trumpet about the four angels at the Euphrates matches the four angels at Revelation 7:1,2, and all the other visions with the four living creatures like at Revelation 15:7. It's all the same thing just told in slightly different ways, going through the different parts of the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

  
  

  Revelation 11:19 says "And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail." Lightning, voice, thunders, earthquake, hail...it's the theme, the plagues, etc, repetition for emphasis.

  
  

  Revelation 14:8 says Babylon has fallen, but then again in Revelation 16:19 it says "The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath." It's the same thing from a different angle.

  
  

  That the "seventh" trumpet is not really seventh from a linear point of view is shown in that the visions repeat again in chapters 12 and 13, recapping the 3 1/2 year timeline.

  
  

  The trumpet Paul was talking about ("the last trumpet") was the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:31...

  
  

  "And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

  
  

  That is at the end of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation.
• 

  Duran

  The trumpet Paul was talking about ("the last trumpet") was the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:31...That is at the end of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation.

  Yes, that is so. And that is when Jesus is said to come and with his coming, so does the kingdom, the 3rd woe.

  [“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.] [in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed]

  [The sixth angel blew his trumpet...

  [The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]

  [The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]

  
  
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  Kosonen

  Duran: At this point beast gets its 42-month authorit
  
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  Kosonen

  Is it not another the beast in Revelation 13, distinct from the one in Revelation 17?