by EasyPrompt 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
@easy prompt
Of course i will still talk to you. Please understand there have been many members on here over the years who have had their lives ruined by the Watchtower cult and come here either to seek help--or just find others of like mind. So please just be yourself and stop ramming the bible down our throats. OK ?
@PetrW
It's not my opinion that counts - it's what God reveals that counts. Other parts of His Word help us understand Revelation.
Time is different in dreams. Revelation is presented as a series of visions. Revelation 8:1 ties the seals in with trumpets that follow. They are tied together. The trumpets, plagues, bowls, all overlap and depict parts of the 3 1/2 years in slightly different ways.
"When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."
The judgment on false religion and on the secular governments is in answer to the prayers of the holy ones who have been hurt all these years by religion and government. The trumpets in times of old heralded God coming to fight, the execution of God's judgment.
"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them." (Revelation 8:2)
In ancient times, there was silence at the temple during part of the prayer time. The response in Revelation 8:3-6 shows that the judgments of Revelation are God's response to the cries of the lowly ones who have been oppressed all these years. His response is by first allowing the religious institutions and then later the secular governments to reap the consequences of their hypocrisy and bloodguilt. The plagues show God views those institutions as "sick" in His eyes. The trumpets herald His judgments upon them. The bowls of His anger represent His will being carried out (just as the bowls carried items from God's altar, which represented God's will.)
"Another angel, holding a golden incense vessel, arrived and stood at the altar, and a large quantity of incense was given him to offer it with the prayers of all the holy ones on the golden altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense from the hand of the angel ascended with the prayers of the holy ones before God. But right away the angel took the incense vessel, and he filled it with some of the fire of the altar and hurled it to the earth. And there were thunders and voices and flashes of lightning and an earthquake. And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."
The trumpets, plagues, bowls all show us that the 3 1/2 year tribulation is in accord with God's will - that He is the One behind the execution of judgment on religious institutions and the corrupt governmental agencies of the world.
(Salvador Dali did a good job of depicting time in a dream-like way...)
@stanlivedeath - I am being myself, thanks. I will take it under consideration that you don't care for Bible verses, but I can see that there are others here who don't mind. So if I am talking to you specifically, I will do my best to refrain from quoting the Bible out of respect for you. But if we are on an open thread like this one, I will continue to share verses, unless Simon tells me to stop. Since this is his site, I will respect his decision and rules. So far, he hasn't said anything to me about too many scriptures. If that happens, I will know it's time for me to graciously leave, because sharing scriptures is part of who I am.
EasyPrompt, why is anointed "killed" in quotation marks on your Timeline Chart?
"why is anointed "killed" in quotation marks"
Some of the anointed are literally killed by the end of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. Others are "changed" without being killed. Either way, they're done with that part of the assignment.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
"Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."
@PetrW
Zechariah chapter 13 sheds some light on all the "thirds" mentioned in Revelation...
"“In that day each of the prophets will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear an official garment of hair in order to deceive.
And he will say, ‘I am no prophet. I am a man cultivating the soil, because a man bought me when I was young.’
And if someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds between your shoulders?’ he will answer, ‘Wounds I received in the house of my friends.’”
“O sword, awake against my shepherd,
Against the man who is my companion,” declares Jehovah of armies.
“Strike the shepherd, and let the flock be scattered;
And I will turn my hand against those who are insignificant.”
“And in all the land,” declares Jehovah,
“Two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
And the third part will be left remaining in it.
And I will bring the third part through the fire;
And I will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on my name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God.’”
Many of the plagues/bowls/trumpets/thunders of Revelation mention fire. Jesus gave illustrations about fire as regards religious hypocrites being exposed. The New Testament talks about building with fire resistant materials as a way to survive the coming tribulation with faith intact.
Many religious people serve for prominence or money instead of for love and truth. When the religious institutions are torn down in the figurative "fire" (by means of governmental authorities stripping them) then it will be clear which "religious" people served for show and which served for real.
In Revelation, the repeated imagery of the fire, voices, thunder, etc, coming from God's throne in heaven poured down to the earth via the angels is assuring us that God's will is sure to be done and these things are rushing to a fulfillment. God has judged the religious institutions as deficient and He is making an accounting with them. The governments of the nations will be permitted to strip them completely of their stuff and for the prominent ones of all the religious institutions their "glory" will become their shame. They will be brought low. "That is where the weeping and gnashing of their teeth will be."
"The dream was given twice to Pharʹaoh because the matter has been firmly established by the true God, and the true God will soon carry it out." (Genesis 41:32)
The visions of God's judgment upon religious and secular institutions in Revelation are repeated not just twice, but many times. Their fulfillment is certain and as good as done and is hurrying to a finish.
Revelation 22:6,7,10,20
"He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. Look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.”"
"He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near."
"The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”"
@EasyPrompt
The quotations of Zechariah and chapter 13 are often used. Personally, I find it incomprehensible. This kind of answer, I understand the same as when I ask: What is love? And the answer will be: God is love! And what is God? Well, love!
Formal correctness is achieved, and one cannot fault such a looping answer, except that the answer is an even greater mystery than the original question.
I have my opinion on 1/3 and the interpretation. It is not, as with 1/4 in the case of the (angelic) horsemen of Revelation 6, a literal 1/4 of the people who perish.
Like 1/3, it is not an arithmetic number, because if 1/3 of the earth is to be burned and all(!!!) the grass is burned (Rev 8:7), then Revelation need not continue from that verse, because life on earth would be destroyed... this verse is, in my opinion, also a "touchstone" for literal/symbolic interpretations, more precisely the boundaries or conditions under which one can speak of the literal or symbolic meaning of the text.
What is 1/3 and to whom does it apply? Answer later (tomorrow perhaps)✌️😎😁
"What is love? And the answer will be: God is love! And what is God? Well, love!"
These verses from Revelation show that God is Love...
Revelation 21:3,4 "“Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes..."
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty..."
Revelation 7:17 "And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes"
God himself will come walk the earth and hang out with His kids here and eat with them and talk with them.
(It's funny, the WTBT$ just put out a monthly broadcast and they show a scene from the Bible passage about Abraham eating with and talking to Jehovah. They completely miss the bigger application! Here are some screenshots...)
Matthew 19:26 "Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Jesus said he'd hang out with everybody here too. "Truly I will be with you in Paradise."
"What is love?...God is love!"
A loving Father spends time with His kids up close, not from a distance.
Ezekiel 48:35 "And the name of the city from that day on will be Jehovah Is There"
EasyPrompt:
The 7 trumpets are not literal, neither are the 7 bowls or 7 plagues. They are all different depictions of the complete judgment of God. There will not be seven different trumpet blasts or seven different plagues. They are taken all together to depict what will happen during the 3 1/2 years of the tribulation ahead.
If the 7 trumpets are not literal, then what is the "last trumpet" referring to?
[1 Corinthians 15:51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, 52 in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]
And how do you explain trumpets 1-5 occurring during the 3 1/2 years?
These 5 trumpets are said to be blown and events associated with them end before the 3 1/2 years begin. (It is within the 6th trumpet that the 42 months are said to occur.)
[Revelation 8:7 And the first one blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 8:8 And the second angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:10 And the third angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet]
[Revelation 8:13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”]
[Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 9:12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.]
[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet.]
@Duran
These 5 trumpets are said to be blown and events associated with them end before the 3 1/2 years begin. (It is within the 6th trumpet that the 42 months are said to occur.)
***
You've described the problem exactly.
The interesting question is when the event announced in trumpet 6 will begin: for Rev 11:2 uses futurum for "trampling" and that it will last 42 months. And in Rev. 11:3 it is written, again using futurum, that "a (suggestion) will be given" to the two witnesses to prophesy (again futurum) 1260 days. For completeness, I add that the second woe ends in Rev. 11:14, and only then, the 3rd woe occurs, at the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet (see also Paul).
In my opinion, the two witnesses begin preaching shortly after the 7th trumpet sounds, that is when the 1260 days begin to be counted. And parallel to this, according to Rev 12:6, the woman, after the birth of the boy/man (Michael), flees into the wilderness for 1260 days.
So I interpret this passage to mean that the heavenly battle (Rev 12:7) between Michael and the dragon, lasts for those 1260 days, the time when the two symbolic witnesses prophesy on earth. After Satan is cast down to earth (so he persecutes the woman again, and is given "time, times, and half a time." Although this roughly corresponds to the length of 42 months, it does not mean that "time" corresponds to "year"). Soon after, the reign of the Beast occurs, which according to Rev 13:5 is to last 42 months, and at that time, I believe, the "trampling" of the court/Jerusalem, the 42 months announced in the 6th trumpet, also occurs.
I've also read the explanation that John applied "days" to the people and "months" to the "beast" to somehow distinguish these time periods while connecting the two.
This is my take on the events surrounding the 7th trumpet and the 1260 days / 42 months issue. I do not convert time periods to "days to years" because there is no reason to.
