Another generation....

by joey jojo 241 Replies latest jw experiences

Ucantnome

Fisherman in reference to my last post in Matthew 12:32 it says,
'32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit [by attributing the miracles done by Me to Satan] will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.' (AMP www.biblegateway.com)
Which I understand is the unforgiveable sin, sinning against the holy spirit. Likewise I understood and maybe wrong that as the prophesying/preaching is done by the out pouring of the holy spirit one could find themselves going against the holy spirit by not attributing it to the holy spirit.
Not only this but to gain salvation for the other sheep Matthew 25:40 I understood was primarily fulfilled by joining and supporting the anointed in the prophesying/preaching.
The problem with this I see is that we must be convinced of what we are preaching in order to be a witness
Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom page 12 under the subheading What it means to be a Witness says
So a Witness relates facts from direct personal knowledge, or he proclaims views or truths of which he is convinced.
Be convinced.
The first booklet that my parents studied 'Look! I'm making all things new' (1959)
It is the generation of people now living who have the opportunity of learning the Bible and surviving the world's end. Jesus further prophesied concerning this day: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come." (Matthew 24:14)...
Do you hear this witness? Do you realize its urgency? Do you want to survive out of this old world of confusion and sorrow into God's new world of peace and joy? Then you must act, and act immediately!...
Your safety and the whole future of yourself and your family depend on now studying the Bible, associating with the New World society of Jehovah's witnesses, dedicating yourself to your Creator, Jehovah God, and witnessing for him...
(Underlining mine)
My father lived beyond the life expectancy for the no 1 country on the list by the World Health Organization(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) and beyond what the bible says at Psalms 90:10
His safety and the whole future of himself in 1959 did not depend on his studying the bible and associating with the New World society of Jehovah's witnesses. He is now dead and so is his older brother who had nothing to do with the bible or Jehovah's witnesses.
However the miracle in Matthew 12 the man was cured. It seems quite different and so to be convinced would be easier than being convinced by the message that was shared with my father.
And as I stated in an earlier post,

'When I have had a conversation with the elder about the good news that he brings to my door and we discuss 1914. He tells me that it wouldn't matter if the date were changed. Which sounds to me that he is not convinced of what he is preaching.
When I discuss the good news with another Witness who lives thousands of miles away and is active in the field ministry. They tell me that they do not discuss 1914 as they believe it could be wrong.'
As these two Witnesses were preaching to me and neither seemed to want to commit to the teachings about 1914 it seems a bit of a conundrum.
Fisherman

Be convinced. UC
UC, I have posted previously that JW have evidence that trumps whether or not the gt comes within the expected generation ,however, TD very keenly established that this discussion is not about personal belief but about whether JW theology on the gc is academically and mathematically valid given wt interpretation of the "Olivette" and how wt applies it to 1914. IT is from that position that I am responding to your post and others.
Case in point: Jehovah's angel communicates with you . That trumps everything but it does not explain whether the wt interpretation of 1914, generation, etc is academically and mathematically correct. JW are convinced "wt" is God's org, HS is behind the preaching work, the meetings, the publications, the assemblies, , the discipline...
So for a JW that has the trumping evidence, even though they cannot understand why wt teachings about the generation, etc do not seem to add up, it is moot because the remarkable evidence that they have trumps. But this discussion ain't about that, IT is about the correctness of wt theology on generation in connection with 1914 and whether the integrated wt gc teaching t limits generation to a point that it invalidates wt theology on 1914.
What I am trying to show is whether or not wt theology falls apart if the gt does not come within the lifespan of people born circa 1935.
Fisherman

what will prevent wt or people like you to come up with the overlapping Great Crowd of 240 years
Given wt theology
What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in terms of length of years in connection with 1914?
A very interesting argument was presented by TD showing that since "the GC" survives the GT and since the GT occurs within the 1914 "generation", and since the wt seems to teach that that same GC exists before the GT, the "life expectancy" of the GC limits the length of years of the 1914 generation.
What did Jesus actually mean by generation in the related prophecy? Whatever he meant, he set a limit: NOT PASS AWAY. If such limit also governs the gc that survives the gt (as TD suggests) then also as long as there are any jw os Methuselahs alive born circa 1935, wt 1914 gt theology is valid. And if this limit is used as a rule to define the length of generation then the anointed overlap doctrine seems invalidated and generation actually means gc -not the anointed. The problem with that though is that circa 1914 when the generation began, there were no gc back then to begin with because according to wt theology the generation began with anointed and the "call" back then was for anointed, the gc did not even exist back then. The problem with that though is that in 1935 when the gc was identified, a lot of people at the convention that professed to be of the gc having an earthly hope must have been 20 years and older, born in 1915 or before which joins the second group of anointed in a siamese fashion to an existing retroactive gc being born circa 1914 who never had the heavenly calling. JW may argue that Jesus said that the anointed would not pass away not the gc but that is not possible because the gc cannot pass away, in fact they never die, surviving the gt. If the gc passes away it does not make any sense because the life expectancy of the gc governs the length of the generation because they never die -therefore anointed interlappers governing the generation length must have been born at the same time as the gc, lets say 1915 (or before unless only 20 yo jw and younger got up in the 1935 convention to profess having an earthly hope.) So, for argument sake, lets say that interlappers and gc were born in 1915. The interlapper contemporaries of the "first group" did not see the sign and according to wt theology, "this generation" means them, the anointed (1 and 2), that does not pass away, and does not directly apply to gc. But since "this generation" can only apply to the interlapping contemporary anointed as an entity, ( actually "this generation" did not apply to the first group because they were destined to die off and in fact applies to the 2nd group because they are the ones that should not pass away, hence, their lifespan defines "this generation") Problem is as TD pointed out that the overlapping anointed have a siamese twin, the gc, born at the same time. And those guys as an entity cannot die off, so although "this" has actually turned out to mean interlapping anointed, it applies to ONLY THOSE anointed of the same life expectancy as the gc. Seems that the generation that cannot pass away is the gc as an entity regardless of interlapping annointed ages -gc life expectancy rules. GC expects life -never to die and Rev states that they survive the gt of 1914 era and receive life. If they die off replaced with gc interlappers, it is ridiculous. Thus, generation is still academically valid as long as the siamese interlapppers do not pass away. That is the limit, passing away. Which means that if some jw born circa 1915 are still alive, the teaching is still academically valid. Most are pushing up daisies, but the teaching is still valid as long as the generation does not pass away. The gc is made up of not only the old guys at the beginning but everybody else that came in after. I have posted on various threads on this Forum using other parameters, that based on all of the variables, limits etc, everything must converge........
Ucantnome

Thank you Fisherman for your replies I think you give some interesting points for thought.
I understand that you were talking to TD. However as the thread was, Another generation, and the opening paragraph said
Remember those guys? The ones born in 1914 that would still be alive when the end of the system arrived.
I think that my father's accepting the good news preached by Jehovah's Witnesses that included this teaching is relevant to the thread.
In an earlier post on this thread I quoted from the book Man's Salvation Out of World Distress At Hand(1975 Watchtower) and TD mentioned the quote in his following post. In this same book on page 47/48 it talks about Isaiah 52/53 and Romans 10. Where it says on page 47/48
The glorification of Jesus Christ in heaven after his extraordinary sufferings as a man on earth was good news, Gospel, Evangel. "Nevertheless," writes the apostle Paul with special reference to his own people, "they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: 'Jehovah, who put faith in the thing heard [from] us? So faith follows the thing heard. In turn the thing heard is through the word about Christ" - Romans 10:16,17.
It goes on to say
A similar thing can be said today....The good news about the Messianic kingdom of Jehovah's "Servant" is better news today than it was nineteen hundred years ago, in apostolic times. In the face of the relatively small proportion of the world's population that has put faith in the "thing heard [from] us" or proclaimed by us, it can truthfully be said: "They did not all obey the good news."
What was preached was the establishment of God's Kingdom and that millions now living will never die I believe as his quote from the Babylon the great has fallen God's Kingdom rules book shows.

The speaker, J. F. Rutherford, then president of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, quoted to the assembled thousands Isaiah 43:8-12 (AV) and then proceeded to say:
Thus we see that those of the temple class are clearly designated as the Lord's witnesses at this time, to bring a message of consolation to the people, that the kingdom of heaven is here, and that millions now living will never die.

'Watchtower June 1 1968 page 331On the Joyful March to Mankind’s Millennium
And no wonder. What good news they have to tell the people! They proclaim the good news that the millennial rule of Christ will begin with this generation and that it will mean ever so many blessings for the people :..’

Awake April 8 1988
Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it. And although their numbers are dwindling, Jesus words will come true, “this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
My father had faith in the good news that he received when it was prophesied/ preached to him by the mouthpiece of Jehovah as far as I could tell and as a JW he would have understood faith as these Watchtower quotes explain
Watchtower September 1st 1969 page 532.

'Jehovah has made many promises of things yet to occur, One may hope that such things will come to pass, but such expression may only be a whimsical wish, not real faith. Faith is more than just an expectation. It is expectation that is assured to such a degree that it is able to support , uphold and guarantee that what is hoped for will become a reality. This is the meaning of hypostasis, a word common in ancient papyrus business documents in reference to guarantees placed on the transactions.
...Substantially the words [hy.po’sta.sis and e’leg.khos] mean that faith gives to things future, which as yet are only hoped for, all the reality of actual present existence,; and irresistibly convinces us of the reality of things unseen and brings us into their presence.” The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Vol.IV page 352.

Watchtower July 15th 1961 page 423
‘And since faith is also “the assured expectation of things hoped for,” it follows that we must also have knowledge of what are the things we may and should hope for. Again, God’s Word provides us with the needed knowledge. It assures us that paradisiac conditions will be restored to this earth, and that on a world-wide scale, and that this restoration work can be expected to begin within the present generation.’
and you say,
JW are convinced "wt" is God's org, HS is behind the preaching work, the meetings, the publications, the assemblies, ,
Which I have to say I find difficult to see as 'faith is assured expectation of the things hoped for" and the original generation teaching that my father accepted as good news was not what you are explaining or what was preached.
The JW who spoke to me about losing their faith in God talked of the new overlapping generation teaching and 1914. I suggested that they speak to the elders. Which they did and received the same response that I would have given. This didn't help much as they had not experienced the same or similar things themselves.
Paul says, 'So faith follows the thing heard. In turn the thing heard is through the word about Christ' but that was the JW problem (the one who spoke to me) the things he had heard.
prologos

Jesus' temple/ Jerusalem prophecy never said the generation would "never die," never" pass away", but it said: will not pass away "until all these things occur", so, after these things have occurred it will pass away, and it has, like any other generation back then and in our 20/21 centries.
Fisherman declaring the wt generation theory/ hypothesis/prophecy "theological and mathematically sound", sounds hollow. not hallow.
Fisherman

so, after these things have occurred it will pass away, and it has, _Prologos
Given: wt theology
The wt teaches that it has not until the disgusting thing standing in a holy place appears.
not pass away "until all these things occur",
Does that mean that if the disgusting thing causing desolation does not show up until 240 years from now the generation should pass away at that time?
It does not appear that the word "until" modifies the length of generation so it does not matter what actually happens to "generation" after all the things occur. The point is that all these things WILL occur before "this generation" passes away, hence, there is a time limit that governs all these things happening.
But if you want use the word "until" to dictate when it is ok for generation to pass away, 1914 generation has not and cannot pass away until the appearance of the disgusting thing -after that it is free to die.
Fisherman

Which I have to say I find difficult to see as 'faith is assured expectation of the things hoped for"
That is another topic. What I was alluding to is evidence from God which does not require faith, it establishes it.
Ucantnome

What I was alluding to is evidence from God which does not require faith, it establishes it.
Maybe you would enlighten me about the evidence, maybe in another thread.
Fisherman

evidence is from God not from me.
Ucantnome

i wasn't asking for you to give me evidence I was asking for you to explain what the evidence would or could be?
maybe an example?

Another generation....

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