by joey jojo 241 Replies latest jw experiences
Witnesses would simply discard that quote as something that has been replaced by the light getting progressively brighter.
They will be less ready with an answer when asked to explain why the older explanation could be explained from the Bible using scripture (albeit their interpretation) yet the new explanation cannot be explained with a single scripture?
What new explanation?
The new understanding of the generation.
I know the WT uses the "other sheep" and GC interchangeably to refer to Witnesses in the "Last Days" but strictly speaking the GC are simply those people who are survive through the big A.
Redefining the generation redefines the whole thing. The quote reflects an old understanding of how the "generation" affected the understanding that the other sheep of 1914 would still be around to survive into the new order as the "great crowd".
Pointing that out to any Witness will simply result in them walking around the boulder of cognitive dissonance.
I think these two quotes are interesting
Watchtower September 1st 1969 page 532.
'Jehovah has made many promises of things yet to occur, One may hope that such things will come to pass, but such expression may only be a whimsical wish, not real faith. Faith is more than just an expectation. It is expectation that is assured to such a degree that it is able to support , uphold and guarantee that what is hoped for will become a reality. This is the meaning of hypostasis, a word common in ancient papyrus business documents in reference to guarantees placed on the transactions.
...Substantially the words [hy.po’sta.sis and e’leg.khos] mean that faith gives to things future, which as yet are only hoped for, all the reality of actual present existence,; and irresistibly convinces us of the reality of things unseen and brings us into their presence.” The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Vol.IV page 352.
Watchtower July 15th 1961 page 423
‘And since faith is also “the assured expectation of things hoped for,” it follows that we must also have knowledge of what are the things we may and should hope for. Again, God’s Word provides us with the needed knowledge. It assures us that paradisiac conditions will be restored to this earth, and that on a world-wide scale, and that this restoration work can be expected to begin within the present generation.’
But without faith it is impossible to [walk with God and] please Him, for whoever comes [near] to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He rewards those who [earnestly and diligently] seek Him. Hebrews 11:6 (AMP www.biblegateway.com)
I know the WT uses the "other sheep" and GC interchangeably to refer to Witnesses in the "Last Days" but strictly speaking the GC are simply those people who are survive through the big A.
Redefining the generation redefines the whole thing.
In theory, it should have, but with some doctrines, that's simply not possible.
maybe these two from "The Nations shall Know That I Am Jehovah"-How?" (WT 1971) pages 58,59,6.
Who, then are the group of persons who, toward the beginning of this "time of the end, " were commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah?
Whom could the real "chariot "of Jehovah's organization roll up to and confront that He might bestow upon this qualified one the commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah?
Who are they?
i find that I think about what Paul said,
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain [useless, amounting to nothing], and your faith is also vain [imaginary, unfounded, devoid of value and benefit—not based on truth]. 15 We are even discovered to be false witnesses [misrepresenting] God, because we testified concerning Him that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
I think we are saying the same thing, at least to a point, TD
According to the Insight book the following sums up the GC...
GC - The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.
The OS is every Witness who is not of the "little flock", i.e. of the 144,000.
So you if die before the big A then you are the OS and not, strictly speaking, part of the GC. They do, however use the term interchangeably.
There is a QFR on this back in '95 (w95 4/15)
Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms “other sheep” and “great crowd”?Of course, the old doctrines were that the generation would be limited to those who were alive in 1914, with varying levels of cognisance of the events of the time depending on when you sample the teaching. This would mean that the majority of the OS would also form the GC.
Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.
Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” The other expression, “great crowd,” appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the “little flock.” A flock of what? Of sheep. The “sheep” of the “little flock” will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.
We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.” Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the “other sheep” of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming “other sheep” of the Fine Shepherd.
We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed “other sheep,” since they are not part of the “little flock.” Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.
Now, what can be said about the identity of the “great crowd” mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, “Who are they and where did they come from?” We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” So the “great crowd” is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.
Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term “great crowd” to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.
In summary, we might remember “other sheep” as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a “great crowd” with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the “other sheep,” and they are part of the “great crowd” as well.
It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were “puffed up with pride” and involved in “debates about words.” (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.
Since the whole overlapping generation thing and the fact all of the eye witnesses of 1914 are now dead these teachings have to be false however the idea remains the same.
If you are trying to catch the Witnesses out by saying that they used to align the OS and GC directly together within the reasonable definition of a generation (i.e 70-80 years max) then you are pissing in the wind since they will simply say the light has progressively got brighter and now it's different.
The fact that 30 years ago one would have assumed that a reasonable proportion of the other sheep who have lived from 1914 would still form part of the great crowd going through Armageddon and now none of them will makes no difference to your average dub. It's simply a a progression of "understanding".
they seemed to have tied the generation to this scripture
Corinthians 15
In fact, also, those who fell asleep [in death] in union with Christ perished,. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ we are of all men most to be pitied. (NWT)
Commenting on this scripture in the book Man's Salvation Out of World Distress At Hand(1975 Watchtower), I believe we studied this book after 1975 probably 1976, it says on page 28.
So much depended upon Messiah's resurrection, and the apostle Paul had suffered so much persecution for preaching it, that if Paul were a liar, then, as he wrote...
So, too, with our generation in this twentieth century. After all that we have gone through since 1914, our generation would be, of all generations, the "most to be pitied".
Think of it, though! Worthy ones of this generation of mankind will be saved alive out of the rest of this world distress so as to survive the worst of it and enter into God's Messianic new system of things and not need a resurrection from the dead to life on earth! This is a valid hope well founded on what was said by Jesus Christ..."
The first booklet that my parents studied 'Look! I'm making all things new' (1959)
It is the generation of people now living who have the opportunity of learning the Bible and surviving the world's end. Jesus further prophesied concerning this day: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come." (Matthew 24:14)...
Do you hear this witness? Do you realize its urgency? Do you want to survive out of this old world of confusion and sorrow into God's new world of peace and joy? Then you must act, and act immediately!...
Your safety and the whole future of yourself and your family depend on now studying the Bible, associating with the New World society of Jehovah's witnesses, dedicating yourself to your Creator, Jehovah God, and witnessing for him...
'Do you hear this witness?'
So you if die before the big A then you are the OS and not, strictly speaking, part of the GC. They do, however use the term interchangeably.
I understand and don't disagree. There is an important qualification to your statement above, however, that is crucial from the standpoint of Christian theology.
It's one thing for someone to lose their status as a, "Prospective" member of the "Great Crowd" through untimely death. (e.g. Accidents, Illness, etc.) It's quite another thing if they never had that status even when they were alive.
In JW theology, the heavenly calling was the only hope for Christians from Pentecost clear up until well into the, "Time of the End" and despite the extreme implausibility of the idea that genuine Christians were truly that few in number, (<144,000) they don't have much of a choice here.
It's not theologically possible for, "Other Sheep" to have existed concurrently during those 19 centuries as that would constitute an entire class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's teach that Revelation 7 holds out for Christians. Changing their understanding of the term, "Generation" has zero to do with this constraint in their salvific model.
If you are trying to catch the Witnesses out by saying that they used to align the OS and GC directly together within the reasonable definition of a generation (i.e 70-80 years max) then you are pissing in the wind since they will simply say the light has progressively got brighter and now it's different.
Not at all. I'm actually pretty respectful and tolerant with JW's in person. I'm speaking more from an academic standpoint here. There are going to be some huge changes to this faith.
Interesting thoughts TD - I think I am seeing a little more clearly where you are coming from.
As you say Rev 7 is explicit in having two classes. The 144,00 and then the Great Crowd. The GC by definition survive Armageddon. I would agree that all the time the WT held to the view of the appointing of the 144k being completed by 1935 then you could only be prospective "GC" post that.
Of course, the fact that the time has marched on so long means many born subsequent to 1935 are dying off and could never have been part of the GC in terms of surviving through Armageddon.
Witnesses would, of course, class these people simply as part of the "other sheep", a class not supported directly by Rev 7, but fairly easily claimed as a group based on the statements about Jesus having sheep "not of this flock". Regardless, past WT doctrine would still limit the OS to post 1935.
I would suggest that the recent change to the view on the 144k being sorted by 1935 does open up the opportunity to say that a Christian over the past 19 centuries could be either 144k or OS, but I don't think they have ever directly said this or even implied it.
I am not sure that this matters to a Witness one way or the other. Revelation 20 is clear about a resurrection so they would simply say that the anyone who died pre Armageddon as a faithful Witness gets a resurrection and this causes no contradiction with Rev 7 only referring to the 144k and the GC who live through Armageddon.
