by Jim Dee 101 Replies latest jw friends
hillary_step,
I am talking from experience here. I was raised as a Jdub and any higher education to further your skills was discouraged. We were not allowed to take any higher education as this would interfer with our number one goal of preaching. So when I refer to those that have high paying prestigious jobs, they were already established before they came into the organization. Maybe in the last few years they have lightened up on this point.
Will
Yesidid,
Many thanks for your note and observations. Yours, was a powerful post which I do not have to tell you that I thoroughly agree with. Your experiences over sixty years, mimic my own and I am pleased that you have grasped the issue at hand.
Obviously there is some of each. In my experience the enforcers do not outnumber the loving ones. I just read this thread, and agree totally with all of Hillary?s observations. I was a part of the WT organization for the best part of sixty years and have relatives who were CO?s, a DO a bethelite, and elders
I have also been in many congregations [lost count]. I have found the same thing. There are some who are just wonderful, some sincerely trying and being about as loving as the average "good" person would be, and some very poor specimens of humanity.
And I believe your questions below are well worth asking and hopefully somebody on this thread will have the courage to answer. It is very easy to attack the wrong target in our enthusiasm to show that the WTS is a dangerous Organization and attacking 'people' imho misses many important points. It is is rather like attacking the Corporals and Captains for the perfomance of the Generals. They are the soft targets ( in my opinion by GB design ) and make easy fodder for criticism. You know the type of thing, "An elder sold me a dud Chrysler', 'JW swore at my dog', 'elders wife eats blood sausage while watching 'R' rated movie about Druids'.
Many on this board seem to think it a badge of honor to malign all witnesses in every possible way. To them I ask " Were you the only intelligent, loving, motivated, sensitive, perceptive Witness there ever was? When you left did you take all those qualities with you?
Again, thank you - HS
William,
So when I refer to those that have high paying prestigious jobs, they were already established before they came into the organization
Wrong, as I have shown from my own experience. The word 'were' should be replaced by 'may have been'. You should avoid stating as fact what is just opinion. It is true that JW's were and still are encouraged not to seek higher education as students. It is untrue that despite this outrageous attempt at keeping JW's tied to their theological mother's apron strings, many have not been able to surmount this problem and land decent 'prestigious' jobs. For example, I know of at least six CEO's of large corporations, world named artists both of the musical and paint brush variety, doctors, accountants, a globally acknowledged antique expert, and an author among the many hundreds of less visible though equally honorable trades that 'pathetic loser' elders have landed, spread around seven countries and all raised as JW's. These stand as case studies of your incorrect assumption.
In fact not so far from your home are both a father and son JW, both raised as JW's who teach English at one of Canada's most 'prestigious' Universities.
Sorry William, you are well off the wall on this one and have assumed too much from your own limited experience.
Best regards - HS
hillary_step
I think I can speak with some experience here as I was raised as a dub. Growing up any pursuit of higher education was discouraged. We were to put all our time and effort in the full time service. I have known some that had good paying positions but they came in after they were established in a career. That has being my experience of being around the religion for 40+ years. Maybe your experience is different but if these ones you speak of pursued a higher education they did not take the advise from the GB.
September 1969 Kingdom Ministry under the heading "Full-time service-youth's splendid opportunity"
"Of course, there may be a tempting offer of higher education or of going into some field of work that promises material rewards. However, Jehovah God holds out to you young folks many marvelous privileges of service in his organization. Which will you decide to take up? In view of the short time left, a decision to pursue a career in this system of things is not only unwise but extremely dangerous. On the other hand, a decision to take advantage of what God offers through his organization opens up excellent opportunities for advancement as well as a rich, meaningful life that will never end." "Yes, will you make your-self available for greater privileges of service in the organization that Jehovah has purposed to preserve forever? or will you pursue a career in this unhappy, dying system of things?"
After I was married and was drifting away from the cult, was when I took part time studies on my own and achieved a diploma in business systems. It was hard work but i did it, although I should have done it before I was married which would have been less stressful. I am proud of my achievements with no thanks to the religion.
Will
Look at the damage that what one day they uttered in the name of their religion has and is still causing. How can you consciously overlook this monumental dynamic?
What did 'love' EVER have to do with an elders 'duties'?
sKally
The very term to "step down" has always errked me to no end. Elders who had to step down leaves the impression they are above me somehow. Yuck it just makes me sick.
William,
I know that I seem to be overly contentious over this matter, but please bear with me as I am determined to see this one through to the bitter end.
Maybe your experience is different but if these ones you speak of pursued a higher education they did not take the advise from the GB.
My experience has been different, but it is not an experience that is exclusive to myself as other posters have noted. My point was to try to show you that your claim that :
In my experience, most elders are pathetic losers that can't get respect in the real world.
is not a realistic claim. This is clearly not an accurate assessment of the scenario, and I would hope at this stage that you understand this.
Maybe your experience is different but if these ones you speak of pursued a higher education they did not take the advise from the GB.
This may be true, I would hedge a bet that it is, however it has little to do with your claim that ?most elders are pathetic losers that can't get respect in the real world?. I think it does no harm to the XJW community to remove its own blinkers every so often and look at the bigger picture and note how easy it is for generalizations such as ?in my experience most worldly people are immoral? to become ?In my experience, most elders are pathetic losers that can't get respect in the real world.?
As to your educational successes, well I congratulate you for your perseverance. I put myself through University as a JW Pioneer and attained my own Degree, so I know some of the discipline that you have had to go through.
Best regards - HS
Skally,
What did 'love' EVER have to do with an elders 'duties'?
In my experience very little, but then this discussion is about whether 'all' or 'most' JW elders are 'uncaring' and 'unloving', not whether their duties are imbued with love. For example, it is the duty of an elder to be a good teacher. Many elders fail miserably in this demand, but they may be a deeply loving and caring family man.
Best regards- HS
To clear up my remark about elders being pathetic losers. I have more respect for the elder that is not educated and doesn't understand what they are doing than the ones that are educated and going along with everything the WT cooperation says. How can they not question policies like the pedophile issue or their shaky doctrines like 1975? Maybe my words were a little strong but to me anyone that would go along without questioning is a loser.
Will
Will,
To clear up my remark about elders being pathetic losers. I have more respect for the elder that is not educated and doesn't understand what they are doing than the ones that are educated and going along with everything the WT cooperation says. How can they not question policies like the pedophile issue or their shaky doctrines like 1975? Maybe my words were a little strong but to me anyone that would go along without questioning is a loser.
lol...Now, you are changing the focus of your argument, nevertheless I will make comment. I presume that you were a JW for some time and also went through the process of accepting all that the WTS fed you for a period of time? If so, you will understand how an elder might have even more of a closed mindset than the publisher about these matters. Please recall how long Jim Penton( educated to professorial status while a JW ), Carl Jonsson, Raymond Franz, Randy Watters, Bill Bowen for example served as elders before they came into the 'real world'.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand. This was your original statement :
In my experience, most elders are pathetic losers that can't get respect in the real world.
I have given you examples of elders who are very respected in the 'real world' and are not 'pathetic losers', but who actually serve their community well through the secular work that they do - perhaps better than some XJWS. I do not think that your words 'were a little strong', I think they are too generalized and flawed to be on any value. Examples in this thread have shown you to be wrong in your assumption, the onus is now on you to prove your statement correct without focussing on distracting issues.
Best regards - HS
