Anti-Americanism

by Englishman 105 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Englishman

  Every county has people who are proud of it and defend it. They will say they love their country and that their country is great. Hell, we even called ourselves "Great Britain".

  Simon,

  I'm not too sure if you were pulling our legs there or not. The "Great" in Great Britain refers to the all encompassing geographical area absorbed by all our various islands.

  A bit like how we refer to Greater Manchester or Greater London, where we actually mean to include all the suburbs as well as the city itself.

  Englishman, who wonders if anyone will understand what the hell he is talking about.
• 

  Abaddon

  Avi:

  Stacy said;

  So Clintons lies about Iraq were acceptable because he only bombed a civilion target in Iraq instead of dragging it out to the proper conclusion, the removal of Saddem.

  Note the singular 'a civilian target'; this is why I thought she was refering to the notorious asprin factory bombing in Sudan. Military targets and dual-use targets were targeted by Clinton and Blair in Iraq in 1998 I think, and there were civilian casualties. As she didn;t immediately say; "hey, what about the oil refinaries and TV stations in Northern Iraq in 1998?", I do think she may have been under the same impression as me; and now we'll never know for sure.

  Please also note I comment on ALL politicians being put to a better use as Christmas tree ornaments, and give a clear example of Clinton-era lying as an example.

  As for the 'UN embargo caused civilian deaths' argument, errr... well, it's more accurate to say 'Saddam's failure to prioritise food and medicine for the people of Iraq during the embargo period caused civilian deaths; he seemed to have plenty of money for other things'.

  Also, note in Stacey's original statement;

  ... instead of dragging it out to the proper conclusion, the removal of Saddem.

  Eh? Without a ground war? How was he going to do that? Wasn't it George Bush I who dropped that particular ball (along with his allies)? I think assess and elephants are pretty much equally unreliable.

  I actually think we probably agree on a lot of areas; especially with regard to your comment on Saudi!

  dubla:

  I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one dubla; I don't think there is a comparable pattern of nationalistic self-engrandisement as a form of entertainment in other developed countries as there is in America. Whilst I might not be able to prove the point to you with regard to direct substitutions, you certainly haven't explained why the trend (which I think I have demonstrated) is something unique to America in modern cinema (in the free world ).

  Whether these movies are succesful or not ouside of America, I don't see as an argument; success is not a validation of goodness - afterall, people buy Britney Spears, and that is a completely independant thing from her being good or not; it's more about marketing.

  Oh and...

  in fact they are may well be more succesful in non-u.s. markets, as i showed.....

  ...as you said; neither of us has shown any figures pertaining to boxoffice success.

  As for;

  i never claimed you were being anti-american, please review.

  No, you said that you are of the opinion that you are able to determine through a pattern of persistantly critical comments whether someone was anti-American, and I think that's a fallacious opinion.

  You haven't at any point agreed that is someone would criticise country B as well as the USA for a certain action, then obviously they can't be anti-American; this is what I am suspicious of. Just as you claim to be able to descern things, apparently so do I.

  You also haven't made any comments on considerations of scale, which obviously lead to the USA getting more criticism.

  Without any response to these points I just don't think your opinion stands up.

  I also think that for someone who isn't bothered by the amount of criticism or by what you see as anti-Americanism, and for someone who finds it funny other people waste their energy with such obsessions, you do spend an awful amount of time responding to threads where people criticise America and act in ways you might see as anti-American. Hmmmm... but that's me having an opinion and discerning things again, isn't it?

  when exactly did i accuse you of being anti-american?

  Nowhere, in as many words. But you've certainly said you are of the opinion you can tell.

  So, am I anti-American?
• 

  dubla

  abaddon-

  Whether these movies are succesful or not ouside of America, I don't see as an argument

  ah, but the fact that they were successful inside of america was your original argument about judging the united states as a nation. i just turned it around and asked, can we judge the people of another nation in the same way, according to what was/is "successful" entertainment in that country? i never made a claim about the movies being "good" because of their success....this idea was yet another strawman from you.

  as you said; neither of us has shown any figures pertaining to boxoffice success.

  actually i did...i just didnt leave a link. if youd like one, i can provide it.

  You haven't at any point agreed that is someone would criticise country B as well as the USA for a certain action, then obviously they can't be anti-American

  i thought i had agreed on that, but maybe i didnt in so many words. actually, my whole original point somewhat stemmed from this idea, as i showed an example of someone that was criticizing country B and the USA for the war in iraq, but subsequently stating that country B was still somehow "better" because of the way it was going about executing the same "mistake". sort of a "i think both countries are wrong, but mine is less wrong for the same action" line of thinking. anyhow, i do agree with your above statement in principle.

  You also haven't made any comments on considerations of scale, which obviously lead to the USA getting more criticism.

  actually i did comment on this....and i agreed that the extra criticism was expected.

  I also think that for someone who isn't bothered by the amount of criticism or by what you see as anti-Americanism, and for someone who finds it funny other people waste their energy with such obsessions, you do spend an awful amount of time responding to threads where people criticise America and act in ways you might see as anti-American.

  if you mean the threads in general about the war and america, i really think theyve been enjoyable and educational....not bothersome on a personal level. they were/are topics that are interesting to me, and i have the same discussions with friends and family members (none of who id consider to be anti-american, btw). am i personally bothered by someone who i think is anti-american? not in the least. will i back up something i believe in during an extended debate with such a person? all day long. its pretty easy to tell who the people are that get personally worked up over the anti-american sentiment.....personal attacks and yelling generally come out in their responses to what is recieved as "america bashing"....or perhaps they simply decide to leave the board because of it. i would also add here, that i do understand why some get worked up, and the fact that its not necessarily my hot button doesnt mean i think their feelings are unwarranted.....quite the contrary.

  Hmmmm... but that's me having an opinion and discerning things again, isn't it?

  its you implying that im a bold-faced liar, and yes, you are entitled to that opinion.

  Nowhere, in as many words. But you've certainly said you are of the opinion you can tell.

  So, am I anti-American?

  honestly, ive never thought so. i believe i even thanked you for your objective input on the wmd thread, if i remember correctly. that was hardly an accusation of america bashing, was it?

  aa
• 

  Abaddon

  dubla:

  ah, but the fact that they were successful inside of america was your original argument about judging the united states as a nation. i just turned it around and asked, can we judge the people of another nation in the same way, according to what was/is "successful" entertainment in that country? i never made a claim about the movies being "good" because of their success....this idea was yet another strawman from you.

  actually i did...i just didnt leave a link. if youd like one, i can provide it.

  Like I say dubla, I see a pattern and think it's whack; you don't... that's fine, I mean, what the hell would we do if we agreed with each other???!! To me the relative levels of success between the USA and the rest of the World do nothing to change the fact that, outside of the movies from countries like North Korea , the USA is the only one that regulary changes history in films. I can understand it, I suppose, in Braveheart, for reasons of narrative. But too often TO ME, it verges on needless tinkering with facts that somehow casts a more favourable light on the USA than what actually happened.

  i do agree with your above statement in principle.

  Light dawns: it wasn't clear to me that you did.

  if you mean the threads in general about the war and america, i really think theyve been enjoyable and educational....not bothersome on a personal level. they were/are topics that are interesting to me, and i have the same discussions with friends and family members (none of who id consider to be anti-american, btw). am i personally bothered by someone who i think is anti-american? not in the least. will i back up something i believe in during an extended debate with such a person? all day long. its pretty easy to tell who the people are that get personally worked up over the anti-american sentiment.....personal attacks and yelling generally come out in their responses to what is recieved as "america bashing"....or perhaps they simply decide to leave the board because of it. i would also add here, that i do understand why some get worked up, and the fact that its not necessarily my hot button doesnt mean i think their feelings are unwarranted.....quite the contrary.

  Well, blow me down, we do agree; I've found them enjoyable and educational too. Perhaps we should stop looking at issues from opposite ends of the telescope!?

  its you implying that im a bold-faced liar, and yes, you are entitled to that opinion.

  I'm not implying that! I understand PERFECTLY that part of the fun is the taking part and the experience of it, as you comment above; that explains perfectly why you still do it even although it doesn't 'bother' you. I understand perfectly because I identify with what you say about why you do it.

  honestly, ive never thought so. i believe i even thanked you for your objective input on the wmd thread, if i remember correctly. that was hardly an accusation of america bashing, was it?

  I think the disconnect was in you feeling you'd felt you'd agreed with something, and me not realising you had, and me not understanding why a (to me) logical statement wasn't being accepted by someone who appeared to claim to read through posts to discern motivation. If you accept the first stating the second is fine.
• 

  dubla

  abaddon-

  ah, sweet common ground.

  But too often TO ME, it verges on needless tinkering with facts that somehow casts a more favourable light on the USA than what actually happened.

  thats fair enough.

  Perhaps we should stop looking at issues from opposite ends of the telescope!?

  believe it or not, i probably agree with you more than you think, even on some of the most heated issues weve been a part of.

  I understand PERFECTLY that part of the fun is the taking part and the experience of it, as you comment above; that explains perfectly why you still do it even although it doesn't 'bother' you. I understand perfectly because I identify with what you say about why you do it.

  im glad i conveyed that properly.....ive been accused of simply being a trouble starter, or a word twister, but i really have enjoyed the threads, and especially the conversations where both sides are willing to bend a little (those have been few and far between, mind you).

  thanks for the civility.....its not always easy to come by, especially when youre down here with the swine.

  aa
• 

  Abaddon

  dubla:

  I'm glad that we understand where each other is coming from - even if we may not understand or agree how each other gets to certain conclusions!

  All the best.