Anti-Americanism

by Englishman 105 Replies latest jw friends

  • dubla
    dubla

    abaddon-

    You say here you can tell the difference between someone opposing some American policies and someone making it a point to oppose American policies

    no, thats not what i said there. what i said was its easy to spot the difference between someone opposing some american policies and a person who seemingly makes a special effort to enthusiastically oppose almost everything america does (this doesnt have to be limited to policies, as in my example about the mission titles). are they criticizing because they feel strongly about this specific policy/action, or do they have a history of generally criticizing all american policies/actions/etc, (and in the case of my example, nit-picking on the most ridiculous aspects just for the sake of nit-picking)?

    can you generally tell the difference between someone arguing a point they believe in, and someone arguing just for the sake of criticizing/antagonizng/annoying/provoking/etc? if you answered yes, then maybe youll understand what i meant by the question: "do we really need a definition to spot these patterns?".

    Jason and Freddy do not address America's presentation of itself as a nation or its self image as a nation in the same way as war movies, so, nice dodge, but your quarterback is still eating Astroturf.

    i used an extreme example to show how ridiculous it is to judge america as a nation based on hollywood fluff. your implication was such a joke, unintentionally, that i had to take a sarcastic jab at it.

    Do you think that it is normal for the USA to change the nationality of heros in war movies so they are American?

    if when you say "the USA", you mean the u.s. government, then i would say absolutely not. if by "the USA" you mean trimark pictures (or any other studio), then id say its as normal as anything else that comes out of hollywood, where everything is exagerrated, sensationalized, and made for one purpose: to sell tickets (notice the purpose was not to educate children on american history). judging the united states as a nation based on the decisions of a script writer is a bit of a reach (translation: completey ludicrous).

    aa

  • Simon
    Simon

    Ah, heirin lies the problem

    People don't generally get as vocal and enthusiastic if something is being done that they think is correct so if all you are counting are the negative criticisms then it's going to give skewed results biased to your supposition that people are America Bashing

    eg.

    Suppose America does 100 things (keeping the numbers small, of course they do many, many things). Someone objects to 5 of them. This is 5%

    If though, you only measure that they have mentioned 5 things and objected to all of them then yes, the figure is 100% and someone not thinking things through clearly could mistakenly imagine that they are totally opposed to America when of course they are not.

  • Stacy Smith
    Stacy Smith

    OK Simon how many threads that have the words anti american in the title have you posted to? 5% or 100%

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    dubla:

    no, thats not what i said there. what i said was its easy to spot the difference between someone opposing some american policies and a person who seemingly makes a special effort to enthusiastically oppose almost everything america does (this doesnt have to be limited to policies, as in my example about the mission titles). are they criticizing because they feel strongly about this specific policy/action, or do they have a history of generally criticizing all american policies/actions/etc, (and in the case of my example, nit-picking on the most ridiculous aspects just for the sake of nit-picking)?

    can you generally tell the difference between someone arguing a point they believe in, and someone arguing just for the sake of criticizing/antagonizng/annoying/provoking/etc? if you answered yes, then maybe youll understand what i meant by the question: "do we really need a definition to spot these patterns?".

    What you are excluding from consideration is that someone can make seemingly continual criticisms of the USA and NOT be anti-American IF they criticise other countries in a fair and proportionate fashion.

    Scale alone means that it is quite easy for someone to do this; America is such a huge country with such massive power that one can.

    YOU might feel that someone is being anti-American, but they might just be a liberal of some sort, with no especialy anti-American agenda, quite happy to criticise other countries - but America just gives them more to complain about than Tonga due to its size and importnace.

    This is why I think at times the attitude of some Americans towards international criticism boarders on the absurd; "oh, it's so unfair" they gasp; but at the same time they see America as the most important and powerful country in the world, one taking a lead in world politics and acting as the 'policeman' of the world.

    OF COURSE THE US WILL GET MORE CRITICISM THAT WAY!

    It's jaw-droppingly silly to think otherwise.

    If you don't like it, then stop being the most important powerful country in the world. Then your countries actions will have less affect on other countries, those countries will care less about what the US does, and the US will get less criticism.

    But I cannot see a way that a country as large and powerful as America can avoid a proportionate amount of criticism; can you dubla?

    i used an extreme example to show how ridiculous it is to judge america as a nation based on hollywood fluff. your implication was such a joke, unintentionally, that i had to take a sarcastic jab at it.

    if when you say "the USA", you mean the u.s. government, then i would say absolutely not. if by "the USA" you mean trimark pictures (or any other studio), then id say its as normal as anything else that comes out of hollywood, where everything is exagerrated, sensationalized, and made for one purpose: to sell tickets (notice the purpose was not to educate children on american history). judging the united states as a nation based on the decisions of a script writer is a bit of a reach (translation: completey ludicrous).

    Life imitates art and art imitates life; if there was no market for films where Americans are portrayed as heros even when they weren't involved, why do they make them? Obviously because they are afraid that no Americans will go and see the movie if it doesn't adjust history to make it interesting to them.

    If that isn't a comment on Americans in general, what is? Hollywood thinks Americans are insular, ignorant and vain; you can tell this by what they serve at the local multiplex! The fact such movies are succesful seems to indicate that Americans like the product.

    But of course, you think it's a joke and can't even see how screwed-up it is. Of course, when a politician starts saying how such and such a film or such MTV clip corrupts by imprinting on them unhealthy images, or reflects how bad society ispeople give credance to such a claim. When you apply the same logic to decietful jongoistic vanity, it is 'a joke'.

    Can't hear the laughter myself.

    Why can't Americans take responsibility for being Americans? Isn't it enough to be in the most powerful country in the world? Do we have to keep the level of criticism below that of say, Portugual, before you think its fair?

    Here's a cake, a plate, and a fork. Have it and eat it, why don't you?

  • Simon
    Simon
    OK Simon how many threads that have the words anti american in the title have you posted to? 5% or 100%

    Well, you have posted to this one with "Anti-American" in the title ... does that make YOU anti-American?

    I haven't said anything that is Anti-American.

  • avishai
    avishai
    ,I cannot see how you think attacking Iraq can be counted as a plan to fight terrorism; a corrupt and evil reigeme yes; one provably linked with 9/11? No. A dangerous reigeme yes; one representing a clear and present danger to the USA or the UK? No. A country that was oppressing its inhabitants yes; a country endangering its neighbours in the near future? No.

    Sounds like a pretty similar scenario to Clinton invading Yugoslavia. But, did anybody bitch about that, or the civilians that died over there?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    avi

    Sounds like a pretty similar scenario to Clinton invading Yugoslavia. But, did anybody bitch about that, or the civilians that died over there?

    As we're talking of Clinton I have to say; "Nice try but no cigar".

    There was an active campaign of ethnic cleansing going on and the action was supported by all Yugoslavia's neighbours and carried out under the auspices of NATO.

    That's THREE large differences with the Iraq invasion.

    Funny how this thread is degenerating into one where Republicans whine about anti-Americanism when they actually mean anti-Republicanism. I didn't know Republicans had the monopoly on being American. Does that mean Mexicans are Democrats?

    Poor little Republicans; have a chimp for the President, use lies or incompetance to justify invasions, and decide CO2 is not a pollutant, and all those nasty unfair people outside of the USA don't like it.

    Funny that...

  • dubla
    dubla

    abaddon-

    What you are excluding from consideration is that someone can make seemingly continual criticisms of the USA and NOT be anti-American IF they criticise other countries in a fair and proportionate fashion.

    i havent excluded that.....and i agree. i still contend that if someone is arguing just for the sake of criticizing/antagonizng/annoying/provoking/etc, its usually trasparent. this is just my opinion, and obviously there isnt any way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. i dont think its that difficult to read someones overall attitude on any subject, given enough examples of their input.

    OF COURSE THE US WILL GET MORE CRITICISM THAT WAY!

    It's jaw-droppingly silly to think otherwise.

    If you don't like it, then stop being the most important powerful country in the world.

    its not that i dont like it....in fact it doesnt bother me that there are so many criticisms......it doesnt bother me that there are people who are anti-american either (i actually think its kinda funny that people even waste their energy with such obsessions). i doubt highly that the average canadian gives a rats a** what i think of his country either (i love canada btw). eman asked how to identify someone who is anti-american, and i gave examples......only my opinions.

    Life imitates art and art imitates life; if there was no market for films where Americans are portrayed as heros even when they weren't involved, why do they make them? Obviously because they are afraid that no Americans will go and see the movie if it doesn't adjust history to make it interesting to them.

    now you are making sweeping generalizations with no basis whatsoever.....youre really trying hard to make your point about hollywood, and youre going farther and farther off base with it. first off, since youre so intent on making this point, youre going to have to set some type of standard for it. is this some huge pattern youve discovered (men of other nationalities being replaced by americans in war movies), or is it just this one movie you mentioned (that ive never seen btw, and i dont think it was particularly that "successful" either). what if i give an example of a movie that goes directly against your mold (a war movie that paints the u.s. in a bad light), and was extremely successful.....does that nullify your side of it?

    If that isn't a comment on Americans in general, what is? Hollywood thinks Americans are insular, ignorant and vain; you can tell this by what they serve at the local multiplex! The fact such movies are succesful seems to indicate that Americans like the product.

    more sweeping generalizations........ill give you a list of successful movies (served up at the local multiplex), and you tell me how they back your above statement.

    -e.t.

    -titanic

    -how the grinch stole xmas

    -my big fat greek wedding

    -rush hour

    -crocodile dundee

    ill leave the list short for now....but you can see where im going. just in case youre going to make the argument that you only meant war movies, youd still need a list of "successful" movies that back your stance, and war movies arent particularly successful in the united states. in fact, out of the top 25 highest grossing movies of all time (domestic), guess how many are war movies? exactly zero. you have to go down to number 43 before you find a war movie (saving private ryan), and there are only two in the top 100. i doubt U-571 made the top 1000, as i am a huge movie buff, and as i said, ive never seen it.

    interestingly enough, the top 100 highest grossing movies of all time at the international (non-usa) market mirrors the domestic list pretty closely (curiously, saving private ryan comes in at 34). apparently, hollywood is doing a pretty good job of giving the entire world the type of product they want. can we judge every country by the movies that were "successful" there? i mean, if the type of entertainment that sells in a particular country doesnt make a statement about the people that live there, what does, right?

    Why can't Americans take responsibility for being Americans? Isn't it enough to be in the most powerful country in the world? Do we have to keep the level of criticism below that of say, Portugual, before you think its fair?

    again, i dont think its unfair or upsetting. the criticisms are to be expected, no doubt, and ive never argued against such a claim, though youd like to paint it as if i had. i merely answered emans question(s) with my opinions. he was asking for opinions, wasnt he?

    aa

  • avishai
    avishai

    Funny, abbadon, I'm not a Republican. Also not whining. I disagree with the way the whole situation was handled. We should have gone after the SAUDI'S immediately, not Iraq & afghanistan.

  • dubla
    dubla

    bttt for abaddon.

    aa

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