A friend needs some advice...

by onacruse 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • blondie
    blondie

    Craig, in that list I would stick to these 2:

    The 2 witness rule using the point about the woman who was raped and no one else was there but the rapist, yet the rapist would be put to death. Deuteronomy 22:25-27

    25

    "If, however, it is in the field (she is alone) that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26 and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case. 27 For it was in the field that he found her. The girl who was engaged screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

    And second the use of "Jehovah" 237 times in the NWT when it does not appear in the oldest manuscripts.

    I would suggest looking up the WTS supporting material for this and note that they depend heavily on the fact that non-JWs have done the same. Also where the WTS admits that God's name (which is not Jehovah) does not appear in the oldest manuscripts which are dated between 100-150 CE. It is amazing that in only 50 years that it would have been deleted.

    The others either depend too much on "apostate" sources or the discussion is a draw as in the cross. I would keep it simple and add in the most telling point that Scully brought out the lack of love. She would need to bring out incidents in her own live of those she has observed in others.

    Blondie

  • JT
    JT

    The first thing i would ask your friend is WHAT DOES SHE WANT TO ACCOMPLISH

    if she merely wants to get something things off her chest, then is she "prepared for the possible backlash"

    if she is then i would suggest following the many suggestions already offered, BUT AND THIS IS A BIG BUT

    if she is Not prepared for the backlash then she is going to have some major issues that she could avoid

    i noticed the following in your post:

    "confrontation with her Dad"

    that doesn't sound like her dad or family are "really" interested in her views, instead like most jw they are programmed to get you BACK IN LINE

    re: her fading.

    If it is her goal to fade away, well confronting jw family members is not the way it is done, the whole purpose of Fading is to simply avoid having to go round and round with folks whose minds are completely closed-

    is she prepared to be DFed or to DA herself, if so , then full steam ahead, in my exp most folks are not prepared and what do i mean by not prepared, one of the first things that a person in my exp needs to do is to START BUILDING A NEW CLIENTE OF FRIENDS so that when they do make thier move and confront family or jw "friends" the lose of such ones from thier lives can be lessened by having folks already in place as friends to do things with

    so many folks come here on the net and while they think they are ready for a showdown at the Old Coral- the fact is they often come here asking WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW, THE ELDERS ARE AFTER ME

    well THIS is all a part of preparing oneself mentallly for that-

    one of the biggest mistakes i see former jw make is to think that somehow if i can show them this proof or this evidence THEN I WILL WIN, please you must be smoking something

    if you had stated that her dad/family had concerns about the org as well then she would have a chance to at least reason with them, but according to your post you stated the following:

    Her family is very devoted to the WTS,

    to me the fact that they are not questioning, not doubting not having any concerns , but instead accept the wt as the word of god, means that she will perhaps have a harder time

    while it is true she can plant the seeds perhaps , but as you stated below:

    and she expects that she'll have only one shot at presenting her defense to him

    well if she approaches it correctly she will not have JUST ONE SHOT, but if she trieds to cram all this info down their throat then yes she will have on one shot

    i tell folks all the time, the same way a person becomes a jw is the same way one leaves

    it is NEVER ONE SCRIPTURE that is read to a householder and next week they want to get baptized, instead it is usually a long process covering many months and sometime YEARS to get a person into WT

    well the same is what i see happen when folks leave, rarely have any of us been shown one article on an wt error and said,

    "I got to get the hell outta here"

    instead it is a process, and denial is the very first thing that happens

    take a look at this board, we see jw come here daily read all these facts and at the end of the day say

    Yes the wt was wrong, but it is still the truth

    my point is it is a process and it is one that CAN'T BE RUSHED OR FORCED ON A PERSON

    it would be real sad to see here lose all contact with her family due to taking the wrong approche\

    go up on Randy's site and read the exp of Amazing and how he got his family out

    it is the most classical approach i have seen, while it may not work in all cases I know for a fact that just shoving alot of Xeroxed copies of the UN, wt errors in dogman rarely makes an impact UNLESS the person is already having issues

    if the person is happy as a lark then one many times creates more issues than they have to deal with

    there is no right or wrong way, but over the years many of us old timers here on the net have seen which approach produces better results and which way produces the worst result and "Confrontation" rarely works cause the person veiws themselves as going up against an AGENT OF SATAN and they are the agent representing Jah and his way of doing things

    with that as the mindset of the person one is talking to how realistic can one be to expect that they will make some head way

    i would suggest reading the following:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/7798/1.ashx

    it highlights an interesting opinion on why PROOF, FACTS, EVIDENCE, ETC have very little if anything to do with convincing folks that their life long CORE BELIEFS ARE WRONG

    my only suggestion is that your friend make sure she is prepared for the outcome, esp if it may not be positive

  • JT
    JT

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/5574/1.ashx

    we discussed at length about leaving wt esp about FADING

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    One of the most painful things I continue to see here on this forum as well as all the others is that many who want to leave wt simply don't know how to leave and remain "Intact" as it were.

    I recall talking with jw who "Formally Disassociated themselves back in the 70?s and it was not till the 90?s and the net did they finally feel free

    or many who ?jump UP? and write a letter off to Mo Larry and Curly (CONGREGATION SERVICE COMMITTEE)

    While I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with writing a letter for many it is a matter of

    1. Poor timing and
    2. not being prepared for what will follow

    When I read of folks who wrote letters feeling bad or feeling that must ?meet? with the elders ? to me that means they were not ready AT THAT TIME.

    The net is really the answer for all lurkers and those who are thinking about leaving ? why not Learn how to leave WT at least somewhat ?Intact?

    Before writing a letter be sure to get the Pros and Cons of writing a letter- for me personally I wouldn?t waste the paper or stamp- but I fully understand for those who do ? there is no right or wrong ? should I send one or not

    But more of a

    1. When should I do this and
    2. How-

    I highly recommend throwing it out here in the forum for suggestions- the reason why is simple

    The avg. jw has so little understanding of the WT Corporate Procedures when it comes to how they deal with folks

    Being Former ?Society Man? the rules and policies swallow up the avg. person

    I recall seeing persons who are leaving spend weeks Xeroxing 40=50 pages of copies of wt history to ?Let the bro. know why?

    They don?t give a RATS A$$ and once a person comes to understand that then they know how to proceed

    Much like explaining Gravity to a 6 month old baby it means absolutely nothing-

    Also understanding that the avg. Joe blow elder is as much a victim as we were

    What I have seen here on the net is how some of the most condemning folks ( she got low hours can?t be too spiritual)

    ( she can pioneer her hubby make s enough money) etc myself INCLUDED ? once we learn the truth about the truth

    we feel so bad about how we treated others when we were in the Org-

    I look back at some of the judicial cases that we handled and being a Society Man I went by the BOOK?

    VERY LITTLE feeling for the ?Individual person? GOT TO KEEP THE ORG CLEAN-

    SO FOR me know I only hope that all the folks I dealt with in an unloving way can forgive me for it was done out of ignorance and being blinded.

    So for any who want to get out--------- please and I beg of you feel free to ask here on the forum what things you need to consider so when you decided to make your move ? you can LEAVE INTACT

    JAMES

    "I'd rather have questions I can't answer than questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question)."

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    I presented the Mexico/Malawi information to my mom and her husband (now deceased) who had been a missionary, and CO in his youth. He said it was all lies, but he had heard of it before. All fabricated. And Ray Franz falsified information to put in the book. (it's what he told us)

    They won't believe any of it, if they aren't open to hearing it. Cognitive dissonance. Remember?

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Best to say NOTHING - no arguments, no doctrinal debates, NOTHING - give no answers - if asked about leaving - simply say "That's my business" - AS IT IS

    There is so much wrong with that place, the father will ponder a dozen reasons all on his own - and never admit it.

    Say NOthing at all - Cut them off.

  • berylblue
    berylblue

    Well here's something no one can argue:

    The opening chapters of In Search of Christian Freedom....in your own words, of course, but tailored to the person and the situation. Never mentioning Ray.

    Briefly, in these first chapters, Ray discusses how a Witness could be DF for believing a dogma contrary to the WTS views, while the WTS views can, and have, changed constantly. With impunity and no compunction whatsoever. I had never thought about this before; It just blew me away. He actually provides court transcripts which show the WTS higher ups admitting under oath that this is done.

    However, some may be dumb like me and not know that Witnesses are actually disfellowshipped for this. I was not aware of it; apostates were never discusssed and I merely thought apostates were those who spoke out strongly against the WTS. Not honest hearted persons often excommunicated for honest, sincere desire to please God.

  • berylblue
    berylblue

    by the way, stauros and the use of Jehovah in the NWT didn't mean a thing to me; it wasn't important to me. Then you're getting into semantics. Best to select things to which most intelligent persons can agree. Please don't let her mention apostate sources, however. She'll lose them right there if she does.

  • sens
    sens
    I would suggest to not worry about the cross thing talk about things that are really important and you will make a bigger impact.

    The 'Cross' thing was the issue that made me first think....and it was the start of my mother leaving the org as well. fyi.

  • JT
    JT
    Best to say NOTHING - no arguments, no doctrinal debates, NOTHING - give no answers - if asked about leaving - simply say "That's my business" - AS IT IS

    There is so much wrong with that place, the father will ponder a dozen reasons all on his own - and never admit it.

    Say NOthing at all - Cut them off.

    excellent advice esp if the desire is to FADE AWAY

    in my veiw she is asking for an A$$ whippin, esp mentally speaking

    it is mentally depressing to show a loved one that they are getting the SHAFT rammed up thier butt and they will sit there and swear out IT FEELS SO GOOD- SMILE

  • berylblue
    berylblue
    I would suggest to not worry about the cross thing talk about things that are really important and you will make a bigger impact.

    The 'Cross' thing was the issue that made me first think....and it was the start of my mother leaving the org as well. fyi.

    Simply amazing how different every individual is. As I stated before, I couldn't care less about the cross. But give me LEGAL DOCUMENTS ...that's a different story.

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