bttt
Is anyone a christian evolutionist?
by Panda 49 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
stillajwexelder
I believe in Christ but I also believe in evolutionary forces
-
Enishi
I suppose you could call me a panentheist evolutionist.
There are in fact ones who claim to be CHRISTIANS......and were called christians by others.....who did not believe in a HISTORICAL Jesus. These were actually very early christians called the 'gnostic' christians.......which were followed by LITERALIST christians who believed in an earthly historical Jesus, wheras, the former only viewed him as a spiritual heavenly Jesus.
Actually, we Gnostics do believe there was an enlightened teacher named Yeshua who became the Christ. We just don't believe he was God incarnate, or that he needed to be sacrificed to atone for some 'original sin' (a doctrine that was invented almost entirely by Paul, who never even meet Jesus) -
imallgrowedup
Gumby/Enishi -
I thought in order for one to call themself a "Christian", one had to believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for the sins of mankind. Am I wrong?
Do Gnostics call themselves "Christians" even though it appears as though they don't believe in the same "Christ" as the Jesus Christ of the Bible?
Do people who believe in a "spiritual heavenly Jesus", believe that Jesus ever walked the earth?
imallgrowedup (of the "still looking for my eyelids" class!)
-
gumby
Actually, we Gnostics do believe there was an enlightened teacher named Yeshua who became the Christ.
Gnostics have taken various turns down through time. There is no indication the first first "christians" had an earthly leader.
Enishi,
"The Jesus Mysteries" covers much of what you are intrested in but not familiar with. There is MUCH to know about Christianity and it's early formation, as well as the NT and how it came to be. This book has documentation for it's information. Knowing what other cultures believed....older than the Hebrews, will give you some insite as to WHY the hebrews believed as they did.
As for you question.......no, the early gnostic christians did not believe in the earthly christ as mentioned in the gospels.He was only an esoteric spiritual one. Even Paul makes no mention of his earthly life, words or quotes of jesus that the gospels mention, miracles, or Jesus family......and he spent much time there as a supposed contemporary of Jesus.
Gumby
-
imallgrowedup
Gumby -
I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that the Apostle Paul didn't believe in the earthly Jesus?
Inquiring Minds Want to Know,
imallgrowedup
-
Enishi
thought in order for one to call themself a "Christian", one had to believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for the sins of mankind. Am I wrong?
Many Orthodox Christians would agree with you. They would deny my claims to be being a Christian, but that's all right. Christianity is just a word, it doesn't matter whether I call myself a Christian or a pagan. To me, being a Christian means following the teachings of Jesus, not just putting faith in him. I have faith in the example he showed, and his teachings on love and returning to the Pleroma. There is no need to believe in the historical person of Jesus in order escape the judgements of an angry tribal god, we were never under any sort of eternal condemnation to begin with. Gnostics do believe that Jesus was the son of God, or One with the Father, however it is something that all gnostics aim to one day achieve.
Do Gnostics call themselves "Christians" even though it appears as though they don't believe in the same "Christ" as the Jesus Christ of the Bible?
Well, there are Gnostics and then there are Gnostics. Not all of them are the same, Gnosticism existed before the events in the Gospels. Many Gnostics did not personally follow Jesus, although they did agree with his teachings. Christian Gnostics, such as myself, do believe that there was a teacher named Yeshua, though the description of his life in the Gospels may not all be literally true. Many Gnostic sects held a dualistic notion of reality. They believed that matter is evil and only spirit is good, which IMO is a horrible mistranslation of what Yeshua was trying to say.
Do people who believe in a "spiritual heavenly Jesus", believe that Jesus ever walked the earth?
Many mystics do believe that there was a teacher, or a group of teachers, in ancient Palestine around whom the story of the Gospels was developed, that he became an incarnation of the Logos, performed various miracles and was executed. However, it is the essence of the heavenly Christ that is most important, not the person of Jesus. Whether or not the events of the Gospel literally happned is quite beside the point.
The early esoteric Christians, wanting to bring about change within the corrupt, legalistic Jewish religion were trying to transmit the knowledge of the many Greek mystery schools that existed at that time. They could have chosen the example of the master Yeshua, one of the foremost among them, and used him as an allegorical example of the deep concepts they were trying to express to the Jewish people. The story of Jesus's suffering on the cross actually has a strong pantheistic theme, basically that we are part of God, God suffers along with us, and it is through suffering that we are purified.
The heavenly Christ is not confined to the historical Jesus, it is our higher self/inner angel that is within all of us. By dwelling in love, the inner Christ fills the heart of the believer and changes them from within. This is what the scriptures mean by being washed clean in the blood of the lamb. This can happen to people of any religious background, even atheists, though they may different ways of describing it.
Part of the reason I choose mysticism as my current understanding is becuase the esoteric path has been held by thousands of groups over thousands of years, with a very high level of consistency. Buddhism, Gnosticism, Essenes, Taoism, Hinduism and Shamanism have all held very similar beliefs which can be backed up through personal experience. The same cannot be said of the orthodoc monotheistic religions.
-
Enishi
I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that the Apostle Paul didn't believe in the earthly Jesus?
It would have been very hard for Paul to formulate his doctrines and found Roman Christianity if he didn't believe in an earthly Jesus. I've never been entirely sure what to think of Paul. He did say some good things in his writings (though I've heard that even that was plagarized from other sources), but on the other hand many of his teachings seem to conflict with Jesus and his disciples.
This article, written by an Essene, raises some interesting point about the contradictions between Jesus and Paul, though the author is a bit out there even for my taste.
-
Enishi
Enishi,
"The Jesus Mysteries" covers much of what you are intrested in but not familiar with. There is MUCH to know about Christianity and it's early formation, as well as the NT and how it came to be.
Thanks, I'll check it out, although I have read in some reviews that the authors lean toward sensationalism.
-
gumby
Enishi,
I had you confused with Imallgrowedup when I responded as I meant the info for her,,,,but I guess that's ok.
You will find as you re-search that it was the christianized gnostics that literally destroyed the mystic gnostics and it's writings. The christians were later the ones who did the persecuting, not the other way around. When the "leaders" decided to give their long awaited deliverer messiah......who 'never showed' a actual birth and earthly life......they simply copied and already existing mythical belief, Mithraism, and put a figure to it.
Take a look at a little excerpt from some info. on the subject,
In all other major respects the theology of the two cults were all but identical.
Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday; Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century. His many titles included ?the Truth,? ?the Light,? and ?the Good Shepherd.? For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.
All this may surprise modern Christians but it was very familiar to the Church Fathers [See e.g. Justin, Origen, Tertullian], who filled their ?Apologies? with dubious rationales as to how Mithraism had anticipated the whole nine yards of Christianity centuries before the supposed arrival of Jesus ? ?diabolic mimicry by a prescient Satan? being the standard explanation. Pagan critics were not slow to point to the truth: Christianity had simply copied the popular motifs of a competitive faith.
Mithras was proclaimed the principal patron of the empire by Aurelian in 274 AD (on December 25th he dedicated a temple to the sun-god in the Campus Martius). Mithraism was adopted by Diocletian in 307 AD and by Julian as late as 362 AD The cult was driven from the scene over the next hundred years by furious and sustained attacks from Christianity.
Gumby