Is anyone a christian evolutionist? (page 3)

Country_Woman

I suppose you can call me a "Christian evolutionist" .

I don't think that everything has been made right away, like waving with a magic want.
Whether Jehovah created the world or another force, I think that using evolution is a fact: life is stil changing - by accident or by purpose (breeding) and creation is'nt less a miracle for that.

(But I reject the idea of monkey-ancestors :-) )

Gumby, The Mithras Story was unknown to me, could you tell me in which period it started ?

Enishi

You will find as you re-search that it was the christianized gnostics that literally destroyed the mystic gnostics and it's writings. The christians were later the ones who did the persecuting, not the other way around.

Are you refering to the Romanized Christians or a different group? Based on what I've read, the orthodox church destroyed much of the early Gnostic literature after the council of Niceane. There was, for instance, a library where thousands of scrolls were burned.

imallgrowedup

Enishi/Gumby -

I can see that an entire website can be dedicated to this subject, but I am going to try to keep this short.

First of all, how does all of this fit in with the writings of Josephus who corroborates the story of Jesus and Pilate, and also claims that many believed Jesus to be the King of the Jews?

Gumby -

I can see why you mixed me up with Enishi - I keep mixing up what you are saying with what he is saying, as well!

I took an Early Western Civilizations course in college, and much of what you are saying rings a bell, although quite honestly, it has been so long, I don't remember the specific details. You have inspired me to look into this further. I also intend to speak to my pastor about this. I would like to know how my church fits into all of this.

Enishi -

Are you saying that Yashua was more of a figurehead versus the actual Christ?

I noticed that you gradually changed "Gnosticism" into "Mysticism" by the end of your post. Why?

Part of the reason I choose mysticism as my current understanding is becuase the esoteric path has been held by thousands of groups over thousands of years, with a very high level of consistency. Buddhism, Gnosticism, Essenes, Taoism, Hinduism and Shamanism have all held very similar beliefs which can be backed up through personal experience. The same cannot be said of the orthodoc monotheistic religions.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

What esoteric path?

What can not be said of the orthodox monotheistic relgions?

Inquiring Minds Have More Questions Than Ever,

imallgrowedup

Enishi

First of all, how does all of this fit in with the writings of Josephus who corroborates the story of Jesus and Pilate, and also claims that many believed Jesus to be the King of the Jews?

I'm not entirely sure of this, but I've heard that Josephus's mention of Jesus was an addition added in by Christians.

Are you saying that Yashua was more of a figurehead versus the actual Christ? I noticed that you gradually changed "Gnosticism" into "Mysticism" by the end of your post. Why?

Yes, the teacher Yeshua is more of a representation of the Christ(Logos) than an actual person. I've seen some articles that suggest Yeshua may not have even been a member of the Jewish religion.

I apologize if my post seemed confusing, sometimes I use different terms when refering to the same subject. This because Gnosticism is a form of mysticism.

What esoteric path? What can not be said of the orthodox monotheistic relgions?

Esoteric basically means inner. It refers to spirituality developed through personal, inner experience, rather than faith developed through the study of scripture or membership in an organized religion (exoteric). There is in many cases much overlap though, for instance some forms of Buddhism are very exoteric. The thing with orthodox monotheistic religions, although there are many spiritual people in their ranks, they are based on historical events and legends which may or may not have happened, or were merely allegorical, as well of ancient writings of questionable authenticity. Attached though I may be to the person of Jesus portrayed in the Gospels, as Gumby pointed out the historical authenticity of Jesus's life is shaky at best.

gumby

Are you refering to the Romanized Christians

Hi enishi,

I should have been more clear. The Literalist christians were the ones who squelshed the first gnostic christians, and the gnostics in general. This was done by the Romanized gnostics as they were the ones to adopt the literalist view. In the 4th century with constantine trying to unify his empire, he had almost all traces of early gnostic writings destroyed and were it not for the adversaries writing against them....little would be known of them and their beliefs. However........in 1945 in a cave near Nag Hammadi in Eygpt....this all changed. An Arab peasant stumbled upon a whole library of gnostic writings such as that of the gospel of Thomas, Phillip, Peter, and the 12 diciples. Thousands of writings were discovered there.

Why were not these sacred writings included in the bible cannon? Because, they were gnostic in nature and did not portrait, the Christ , in the manner he is now presented in the accepted gospels.

The point is.....there is much proof out there that the very early christian gnostic church, which was believed to have been jews who adopted surrounding beliefs of mithra, and Dionysis, and invented a jesus figure who was similar in many obvious respects, and he was viewed in a spiritual nature, untill came those who said the allegory was real, and gave the jesus story a literal meaning and gave him an also, earthly existence.

I think it's intresting that many early beliefs.....such as that of the gnostics, still exists today.....in spite of christianitys power over the worship people chose. They were openminded, did not insist on a certain belief dogma, and allowed a spiritual experience that was a single event for every seperate individual. Although I don't subscribe to it's teachings, I'm impressed that much of the same line of thought has existed until today.

Gumby

Enishi

Hi enishi,
I should have been more clear. The Literalist christians were the ones who squelshed the first gnostic christians, and the gnostics in general. This was done by the Romanized gnostics as they were the ones to adopt the literalist view. In the 4th century with constantine trying to unify his empire, he had almost all traces of early gnostic writings destroyed and were it not for the adversaries writing against them....little would be known of them and their beliefs. However........in 1945 in a cave near Nag Hammadi in Eygpt....this all changed. An Arab peasant stumbled upon a whole library of gnostic writings such as that of the gospel of Thomas, Phillip, Peter, and the 12 diciples. Thousands of writings were discovered there.

Ok, we were thinking of the same group then. Yeah, Constantine and the literalist Christians were the instigators of one of the worst disastors human society has ever witnessed.

The Nag Hammadi library is actually online now. I've gotten quite a bit of inspiration from it, I particularily enjoyed reading the Gospels of Phillip and Thomas.

gumby

Imallgrowedup,

Josephus early writing did not include these sayings about Jesus. These two refrences are interpolations which are agreed to be such by most bible scholars. Early church fathers who wrote in defense of a literal jesus never mentioned these writings of Josephus...which they would have used had they existed. They were added to his writings later.

Gumby

Panda

This is an interesting discussion. If you don't mind a bit of pedantism, esoteric means a subject beyond the understanding of the average "JOE". You might describe the Delphic Oracle as esoteric. Any secret or occult knowledge would be esoteric. The Mysteries of Mithra are esoterica.

Isn't there a group who believe that the physical Yeshua is changeable by each generation, yet remains the same spirit forever. I know it sounds like Tibetan Buddhism but it's an American group.

gumby

Panda,

esoteric means a subject beyond the understanding of the average "JOE".

So then.......my wife is esoteric?

Gumby

Yerusalyim

Your friend is wrong if he believes that in order to be a Christain one must accept the 6 day creation story at face value. I personally believe in a divinely guided (as oppossed to accidental) evolution. And I'm a Christian.

Is anyone a christian evolutionist?

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