Is anyone a christian evolutionist?

by Panda 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • gumby
    gumby

    Morning yeru,

    How's the weather over there?

    As far as the 'creating' of things.......such as animals.......do you think when he said.."let their be birds in midheaven" that he DIDN'T make them appear from his spoken word? Or.....do you feel he spoke the word(or decided to act)...... then he formed some type of life that would EVENTUALLY turn into a bird after millions or billions of years?

    Were I to believe in jesus.....I would believe the OT also I think. If I believed in the OT......then I would believe when god said it......it happened on the spot.

    From a non-biblical perspective.....which is how I see it, ....I believe in a maker of some sort, but know nothing about him/her/it........other than they started life, and it's incredible miracles. I wish we could know more.

    Gumby

  • Panda
    Panda

    Gumby: Well, if the shoe fits ... if your name is Joe and your wife is unknowable, then she must be esoteric. Do you worship her as is befitting an oracle at Delphi? I know you must.

    Yeru: My Mother believed the way you do. She was Catholic and believed that God started life and that evolution was his programmed building block. (and Hey how's that new job?)

    Gumby: I agree about the Bible. But I want to work on one thing at a time. Imagine, I say to my church of christ friend "Oh and by the by if you understand evolution you're going to have to give up that ancient text you love so well."

  • gumby
    gumby
    Imagine, I say to my church of christ friend "Oh and by the by if you understand evolution you're going to have to give up that ancient text you love so well."

    Hi panda,

    I would be careful how you handle saying anything negative about god and the bible to your friend.

    Christians can act like dubs sometimes by their shock that you have "turned"......or backslid, against god and his word. Some will even shy away from you after you tell them.

    Gumby

  • imallgrowedup
    imallgrowedup

    Gumby -

    Josephus early writing did not include these sayings about Jesus. These two refrences are interpolations which are agreed to be such by most bible scholars. Early church fathers who wrote in defense of a literal jesus never mentioned these writings of Josephus...which they would have used had they existed. They were added to his writings later.

    As mentioned earlier, most of the early writings were destroyed, perhaps his writings were just one of many, and therefore not referenced.

    Here is an interesting site which has many early christian writings. The link below is from a letter that Pilate sent to Claudius. Thought you might find it interesting.

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/reportpilate.html

  • Enishi
    Enishi
    Christians can act like dubs sometimes by their shock that you have "turned"......or backslid, against god and his word. Some will even shy away from you after you tell them.

    I've noticed this as well, dubs aren't the only ones skilled at shunning. I worry over it frequently, my mother is only just starting to come to terms with what she knows about what the society has done, while trying to reconcile her Christian faith. Breaking away from the WTS will be hard as it is for her. I try to keep my new beliefs and opinions to myself now, as I don't want to her to completely lose hope. I'm especially careful around my friends from the hall. If they learned what I think of the society they would become antagonistic as it is, but if they knew that I believe in evolution, reincarnation, have rejected traditional christianity and am now considering experimenting with magic, they would probably think I had become Satan's avatar. Which would, incidentally, destroy any chance I might have of helping them escape from dubdom.

  • Enishi
    Enishi

    imallgrowedup,

    Interesting site, thanks for posting it.

  • imallgrowedup
    imallgrowedup

    Gumby -

    I agree that there are many Christians who shun as do JW's, however, I honestly don't think any single Christian or religion has perfected it the way JW's do. Shun in Dubya lingo = you are dead to me. Many Christians who shun others for "backsliding" do it more as an "I'm holier than thou" attitude. I am sure there are exceptions, but in my opinion, most Christians who shun, don't do it to the nth degree like the JW's. For what it is worth, I do know of many Christians who do not shun, condemn or cop an attitude.

    Enishi -

    It's my pleasure to share that site. I've just begun going through it myself. Let me know if you find anything interesting!

    TTFN,

    imallgrowedup

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hi Imallgrowedup,

    The" Acts of Pilate" you presented has much to be said about it. As you might have guessed I'd say......it too has been viewed as a spurious writing as are the gospels and here's why.

    At one point, this book was considered canonical. After the canon was formed, the 'acts of pilate' was considered spurious and forged, hense was not put in the canon we now have.

    This book also purports to record actual conversations of enoch and david after they have ascended to heaven since jesus crucifiction. This supposed 'true" gospel also records a conversation between Satan and his prince of hell.

    This book has as many ridiculous statements as do the canonized gospels.

    Pilate hated the jews and NEVER delegated ANY authority to the jews, and yet he is portrayed as a man who try's to distance himself from the accusations of the jews.....yet he is "coerced" into giving in to their demands.Baloney! He would have not acted that way if you read of him

    Also according to the gospel story......'the jews have a custom at passover in which they ask pilate to release a criminal OF THEIR CHOICE! That is a lie in the first place as there IS NO SUCH CUSTOM among the Jews TO RELEASE anyone AT PASSOVER......OR ANY OTHER TIME.

    As an added though, Josephus never records anything about a baby slaughter of 2 years and under when Jesus was born. Only do the gospels. Ones who have speculated say the slaughter was anywhere from 144,000 - 14. Pretty accurate eh?

    I hope this help a bit.

    Gumby

  • barry
    barry

    I posted this earlier but it still may amuse some here.

    Richard Bottomley a professor of physics while speaking at an SDA faith and science conference said Remember that while God has been a physicist for nearly 14 Billion years he has only been a theologian for the last 6 thousand years, He got the biggest laugh of the day. The conference was held only last month in Colarado. Its my beleif they are haveing problems with a strict 6 thousand year 7 day model of creation. Barry

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Gumby said:

    You will find as you re-search that it was the christianized gnostics that literally destroyed the mystic gnostics and it's writings. The christians were later the ones who did the persecuting, not the other way around. When the "leaders" decided to give their long awaited deliverer messiah......who 'never showed' a actual birth and earthly life......they simply copied and already existing mythical belief, Mithraism, and put a figure to it.

    Take a look at a little excerpt from some info. on the subject,

    In all other major respects the theology of the two cults were all but identical.

    Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday; Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century. His many titles included ?the Truth,? ?the Light,? and ?the Good Shepherd.? For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.

    All this may surprise modern Christians but it was very familiar to the Church Fathers [See e.g. Justin, Origen, Tertullian], who filled their ?Apologies? with dubious rationales as to how Mithraism had anticipated the whole nine yards of Christianity centuries before the supposed arrival of Jesus ? ?diabolic mimicry by a prescient Satan? being the standard explanation. Pagan critics were not slow to point to the truth: Christianity had simply copied the popular motifs of a competitive faith.

    Mithras was proclaimed the principal patron of the empire by Aurelian in 274 AD (on December 25th he dedicated a temple to the sun-god in the Campus Martius). Mithraism was adopted by Diocletian in 307 AD and by Julian as late as 362 AD The cult was driven from the scene over the next hundred years by furious and sustained attacks from Christianity.

    Gumby

    The following is from:

    http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html

    He had 12 companions or disicples.

    I have seen this claim repeated a number of times, almost always (see below) without any documentation. (One of our readers wrote to Acharya asking for specific evidence of this one...she did not reply, although she had readily replied to a prior message.) The Iranian Mithras, as we have seen, did have a single companion (Varuna), and the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions, tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself, called Cautes and Cautopatres, that were perhaps meant to represent the sunrise and sunset (whereas "Big Daddy" Mithra was supposed to be noon), spring and autumn, the stars Albedaran and Antares [Beck.PO, 26] or life and death. (Freke and Gandy absurdly attempt to link these twins to the two theives crucified with Jesus! - Frek.JM, 51 - because one went to heaven with Jesus [torch up] and one went to hell [torch down]! Why not link instead to Laurel and Hardy, because one was repentant [torch down] and the other was a bully [torch up]!) Mithra also had a number of animal companions: a snake, a dog, a lion, a scorpion -- but not 12 of them.

    Now here's an irony. My one idea as to where they got this one was a picture of the bull-slaying scene carved in stone, found in Ulansey's book, that depicts the scene framed by 2 vertical rows with 6 pictures of what seem to be human figures or faces on each side. It occurred to me that some non-Mithraist perhaps saw this picture and said, "Ah ha, those 12 people must be companions or disciples! Just like Jesus!" Days later I received Freke and Gandy's book, and sure enough -- that's how they make the connection. Indeed, they go as far as saying that during the Mirthaic initiation ceremony, Mithraic disciples dressed up as the signs of the zodiac and formed a circle around the initiate. [Frek.JM, 42] Where they (or rather, their source) get this information about the methods of Mithraic initiation, one can only guess: No Mithraic scholar seems aware of it, and their source, Godwin, is a specialist in "Western esoteric teaching" -- not a Mithraist, and it shows, because although writing in 1981, well after the first Mithraic congress, Godwin was still following Cumont's line that Iranian and Roman Mithraism were the same, and thus ended up offering interpretations of the bull-slaying scene that bear no resemblance to what Mithraic scholars today see in it at all. (To be fair, though, Freke and Gandy do not give the page number where Godwin supposedly says this -- and his material on Mithraism says nothing about any initiation ceremony.) However, aside from the fact that this carving is (yet again!) significantly post-Christian (so that any borrowing would have had to be the other way), these figures have been identified by modern Mithraic scholars as representing zodiacal symbols. Indeed, the top two faces are supposed to be the sun and the moon!

    Acharya in her latest now acknowledges that Mithra's dozen are the zodiac, but goes on the defense by saying, "the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a 'last supper' is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism" -- with the Mithraic supper compared to the Last Supper (see below). She also adds: "The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundreds years before Jesus. This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, 'Agis and Kleomenes' 37:2-3." This is only partly true -- I was alerted to this passage by a helpful reader: "For [Cleomenes] sacrificed, and gave them large portions, and, with a garland upon his head, feasted and made merry with his friends. It is said that he began the action sooner than he designed, having understood that a servant who was privy to the plot had gone out to visit a mistress that he loved. This made him afraid of a discovery; and therefore, as soon as it was full noon, and all the keepers sleeping off their wine, he put on his coat, and opening his seam to bare his right shoulder, with his drawn sword in his hand, he issued forth, together with his friends provided in the same manner, making thirteen in all." It's a "last supper," but it isn't invested with any significance in itself (least of all, atoning significance! -- and these guys clearly had to have a "last meal" at some point!), and the twelve companions don't have any real role beyond this pericope. We'd put this own down as natural coincidence (as there are people with five, 10, or other numbers of companions as well.)

    As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

    This description is rather spun out into a sound-alike of Christian belief, but behind the vagueness lies a different story. Mithra did not "sacrifice himself" in the sense that he died; he was not the "great bull of the Sun", but rather, he killed the bull (attempts to somehow identify Mithra with the very bull he slayed, although popular with outdated non-Mithraists like Loisy and Bunsen, were rejected by Vermaseren, who said that "neither the temples nor the inscriptions give any definite evidence to support this view and only future finds can confirm it" [Verm.MSG, 103]; it was not for the sake of "world peace" (except, perhaps, in the sense that Cumont interpreted the bull-slaying as a creation myth [Cum.MM, 193], in which he was entirely wrong). Mithra could only be said to have "sacrificed himself" in the sense that he went out and took a risk to do a heroic deed; the rest finds no justification at all in modern Mithraic studies literature -- much less does it entail a parallel to Christ, who sacrificed himself for atonement from personal sin (not "world peace").

    He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

    I have to classify these two as "ringers" -- I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is "no death of Mithras" -- Gor.IV, 96] and so of course no rising again and no "resurrection" (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 56] claim that the Mithraic initiates "enacted a similar resurrection scene", but their only reference is to a comment by Tertullian, significantly after New Testament times! Tekton Research Assistant Punkish adds: The footnote is for Tertullian's Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 40 which says, "if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan, ) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown" ...so their argument relies on Tertullian's memory, and it isn't the initiates but Mithra who does the celebrating and introduces an *image* of a resurrection?! How is that at all related to initiates acting out a scene? Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late, guys! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all!) Acharya adds the assertion of Dupuis that Mithras was killed by crucifixion, but from the description, either Dupuis or Acharya are mixing up Mithra with Attis!

    He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

    Only the third aspect has any truth to it as far as I can find from Mithraic studies sources: The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem" animal, just as Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer [Biv.PM, 32]. Since Mithra was a sun-god, there was also an association with Leo, which was the House of the Sun in Babylonian astrology. But aside from this evidence all being post-Christian, one may ask what the big deal is. Do we expect the Christians or the Mithraists to say, "Darn, we can't use the lion, it's already taken by the other guys?" Should Exxon give up their tiger because of Frosted Flakes? But if you really want to get techincal, Jesus owned the rights to the lion symbol as a member of the tribe of Judah long before Mithras even appeared in his Iranian incarnation (Gen. 49:9).

    There are other associations as well: In the Roman material, one of Mithra's companions in the bull-slaying scene is a lion; the lion is sometimes Mithra's hunting and feasting companion; Mithra is sometimes associated with a lion-headed being who is sometimes identified as the evil Zoroatrsian god Ahriman [MS.277]; one of the seven stages of initiation in Mithraism is the lion stage. But Mithra is only called a lion in one Mithraic tale (which is part of Armenian folklore -- where did the writers of the NT pick that up?) because as a child he killed a lion and split it in two. [MS.356, 442]

    He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah." Acharya now adds in her latest work the titles creator of the world, God of gods, the mediator, mighty ruler, king of gods, lord of heaven and earth, Sun of Righteousness.

    We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

    His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.

    We'll consider these two together. The Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations: a festival on October 8; another on September 12-16, and a "cattle-pairing" festival on October 12-16 [MS.59]. But as for an Easter festival, I have seen only that there was a festival at the spring equinox -- and it was one of just four, one for each season.

    In terms of Sunday being a sacred day, this is correct [Cum.MM, 190-1], but it only appears in Roman Mithraism, and Acharya here is apparently assuming, like Cumont, that what held true for Roman Mithraism also held true for the Iranian version -- but there is no evidence for this. If any borrowing occurred (it probably didn't), it was the other way around.

    His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

    This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it's actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] -- the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic "Eucharist," there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of "evidence" is far, far too late to be useful -- except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer's Jesus Sutras for details.)

    The closest thing that Mithraism had to a "Last Supper" was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebreation of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world -- from religious groups to funereal societies. [MS.348]

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