But 'goodness' is defined by god, not by us.
Yes. If you were a product of chance, you would have no way of knowing if anything was good or bad.
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
Sea Breeze
-
TonusOH
So, by your reasoning, you cannot know how god will treat you. Good is entirely at his discretion. What basis is there to trust that he will do as you expect, and not go in any other direction, since any action he takes is, by definition, good?
-
Halcon
A non material soul can experience torment without actually burning physically, because there is nothing physical to burn.
To be consistent we can say that a soul is tormented by the flames of hell while not actually physically burning in the flames.
The definition of tormenting is "inflicting severe physical or mental suffering"
We both agree it's not a physical burning of the body since there is no physical body to burn. That leaves us with a mental suffering. This fits in with your interpretation of the body separating from the soul at death. A mental tormenting is also a logical possibility for spirit beings such as demons.
You see a mental suffering of the soul as worse than a physical one. I see it as less severe, in fact I see it as a relief in comparison to everlasting physical pain from burning.
Hell as a state of eternal mental tormenting is still an unwanted state no doubt.
In fact it could be considered more so a self inflicting punishment than a physical burning hell, because you eliminate the factor of fear, thus underlining the factor of free will. In other words, if I'm not afraid of hell, I can't blame God for my choosing (with my actions) to be there to begin with.
-
Sea Breeze
What basis is there to trust that he will do as you expect
The same as it has been since Calvary.
2000 years a man was born in an insignificant village in a far flug provence of Rome to a peasant girl. The boy grew up and was never known to tell a lie. He performed astonising miracles that even his enemies acknowledge. He predicted that he would be killed and that three days later he would resurrect himself from the dead... while he was dead.
He did all of these things publically, in the open, in the heart of the most mysterious and religious city in the world - Jerusalem.That is the basis of my belief that God is not a liar.
What is the basis of your unbelief? -
vienne
The original premise is questionable. Did the Apostle's students believe in Hell-Fire?
Consider:
-
TonusOH
Sea Breeze: That is the basis of my belief that God is not a liar.
Sea Breeze: What is the basis of your unbelief?
For starters, the Bible explains that god lied to the first humans, threatening to kill them on the day they ate of the forbidden fruit. What's more, he also deceptively withheld the real reason he did not want them to eat it-- he did not want them to become like him, knowing right from wrong.
But that wasn't even the point I was making. As you quoted, I asked what basis you had for trusting that god would do as you expect him to. God doesn't just lie in the Bible, he massacres people and animals en masse because the world he created went bad almost immediately. And this angry reaction fixed nothing. This alone should ring alarm bells in your mind.
This god executed a man on the spot for the 'crime' of trying to steady the Ark of the Covenant when he thought it was going to fall off a cart. Another abrupt and extreme act of violence done in anger.
This god made a deal with the devil and allowed the devil to visit murder and catastrophe upon a man that even god found no fault with. When he finally decided to clear things up, one of the first things he did was to utterly humiliate Job for the 'crime' of wanting an explanation for the sheer hell he had been put through.
This god watched David bed another man's wife and arrange for the murder of that man. Seeing this travesty, god decided that David would be punished by... the deaths of his newborn infant and grown son. David, by the way, would be part of the lineage that would lead to the birth of the messiah.
There are plenty more examples that show this god to be angry, vengeful, jealous, petty, and gruesomely violent. I ask again, what basis do you have to trust that he will not eventually discard you? Or revise the terms of any offer he made to you? He is unpredictable, prone to irrational outbursts of anger, and utterly unstoppable.
I mean, what is his plan for those gifted with the reward of a heavenly afterlife? They get to spend eternity reminding god of how great he is, forever and ever. Aside from how unnecessary this is, and how awkward it must be to try and stroke the universe's biggest ego for the rest of your immortal life, this also subverts free will. I'm not sure you're reading the book correctly, if you're thinking god is on the level.
-
Sea Breeze
Once Adam fell, the right to exist ceased, for the wages of sin is death. The miracle is that God has allowed any of sinful man to exist for any length of time. Your next breath is a kindness from the Lord.
Courts all over the world recognize that the pure administration of Law leaves something lacking. Judges recognize that justice without mercy is cruelty.
Thomas Aquinas said, “Mercy without justice is the mother of dissolution” and “justice without mercy is cruelty.” For the former, the wicked are allowed to go unpunished, and for the latter, they are punished with brutality.
God who the standard of goodness and who knows all things is perfectly within his judicial authority right to apply a mixture justice and mercy as he sees fit.
You seemed to be hung up on the idea that if you submit to God, he might go back on his word to save you and treat you as a cherished son or daughter for eternity.
If he did, I would only be getting what I deserve anyway, so I have no right to complain. But Jesus, who raised himself from the dead, guarantees otherwise:
Receiving Jesus guarantees eternal life:
*Rom.6:23b The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
*Jn.11:26 Whosoever…believeth in Me shall never die.
*Jn.14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many mansions.*1Pet.1:3,4 Incorruptible inheritance reserved in Heaven for you.
*2 Cor 1:22. Our inheritance cannot be taken away.
*1Jn.5:11 God hath given to us eternal life…in His Son.
*John 17:3 to know Jesus is to have Eternal Life.2 Cor 1:3. God is our comfort and we can comfort others and use that affliction to help others.
John 6:47 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
-
TonusOH
Sea Breeze: God who the standard of goodness
It's pretty easy to be the standard of goodness when anything you do or say is categorized as "good" no matter what. The actions I described above are all considered 'good' because god performed them. If you or I had treated a person the way Job was treated, no one would think we had done something good. If the reply to this is to point out that god is not a human and thus not bound by human morals, it demostrates how useless it is to say he is good.
If god can be the personification of good, even though he does things that are clearly not good, how can you trust him? If he can personify love, while doing things that are clearly not loving, how can you trust him? How do you trust a god who claims to want all to be saved, but also admits that a great many will not, even though it is totally within his power to save them all? If this god were real, the evidence that he is pure nightmare fuel is overwhelming.
-
vienne
Since solid historical research shows that early disciples did not believe in a fiery hell, the original premise is wrong. Yet this is left without a comment?
-
cofty
Anybody who can worship and adore a deity who would burn a fellow-human for eternity is a moral reprobate.