@TTWSYF
You are right. I don't see the word soul there and I also do not see the word torment or pain.
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vanderhoven7
@ Sea Breeze
"do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - Jesus"
Look at the full verse SB.
4. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN GEHENNA.
The words "kill" and "destroy" are used interchangeably in the text. And strangely, it appears that both body and soul are capable of being destroyed or killed in Gehenna. Additionally, nothing in this verse suggests immortality of the soul and instead contradicts it.. Neither kill nor destroy denote or even suggest pain or torment.
Now you would have a case if the verse read:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO TORMENT BOTH YOUR BODY AND YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL FOR ETERNITY IN GEHENNA.
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Vanderhoven7
LET'S EXAMINE THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE APOSTLES:
CONSUME:
Does "consuming" denote or imply perpetual/endless torture?
PERISH:
Does perishing, "as brute beasts", denote perpetual or endless pain?
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION/EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION:
Does eternal destruction denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?
DEATH:
Does death denote "perpetual/endless anguish"?
ETERNAL FIRE:
Does eternal fire denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?
Could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction?
WRATH OF GOD:
Does "wrath" denote "perpetual/endless pain"?
Would it be fair to say that God's wrath in the Old Testament
aimed at destruction, not endless torment as in the case of Noah's
flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?
TROUBLE AND DISTRESS:
Does "trouble and distress" denote "endless torture"? Could the trouble and distress poured out on the wicked ultimately lead to their destruction, i.e., death?
BLACKNESS AND DARKNESS FOREVER:
Does "blackness and darkness forever" denote conscious torment? Could "blackness and darkness forever" be a metaphor for death? Similar eternal darkness imagery is encountered in Psalm 49:18-19 which reads:
(18) Though while he (the wealthy) lived, he counted
himself blessed...(19) he will join the generation of his
fathers, who will never see the light of life.
SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER:
Does eternal exclusion from God's presence, power and majesty denote endless torment? It is interesting to note that this description of final punishment is preceded by the phrase, "PUNISHED BY EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". This destruction both originates or proceeds from God's fiery presence and "it will remove the wicked away from that presence forever". Certainly, no sinner can dwell for long in God's holy presence (Is.33:10-17) without being consumed. But even though the nature of final destruction excludes the possibility of sinners ever entering God's presence, nothing in the language requires unending conscious experience.
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aqwsed12345
Some Current Questions in Eschatology - Point 2-5
Anthropology Of The Old Testament
The Christian Doctrine of Immortality
The meaning of the word "soul", as a component of Man
Is there life after death? - Luke 16:19-31
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"10 Extinction proof texts refuted!
After Death — What? ...according to Jesus
Ezekiel 18:4 is especally strange because the JWs often quote this verse, there is absolutely no mention of describing the substantial components of man, nor about afterlife awareness. Here, "nefesh" simply means man himself, it does not negate anything, of having a soul or not.
Adherents of Christian anthropological dualism do not understand by "soul" what they mean by "nefesh" in those places of the Holy Scriptures, when it means the whole man himself. The verses about the latter's death do not refute or deny the former, so they cannot be used for that anyway.
These expressions are simply Hebraisms, as the word 'nefesh' often can substitute for the reflexive and personal pronoun in Hebrew. Thus, expressions such as "my soul shall die" = "I shall die" should be understood in this way. The same word in the Bible can have multiple meanings, or sometimes different words can express the same thing. For example, the Hebrew 'nefesh' is often not translated as "soul" but as "living being" (therefore, when speaking of the death of 'nefesh', it does not deny the immortality of the soul, as Jehovah's Witnesses might think).
When the Bible speaks of the "soul" dying (e.g., Numbers 23:10; 1 Kings 19:14), it always refers to the whole person (in a broader sense) and never to the soul as an element of human creation (in a narrower sense). This is especially true for passages like Ezekiel 18:4, which the Watchtower Society often quotes. When the prophet says there that "the soul that sins shall die", it is obviously meant in the sense of the human being's spiritual-physical unity, since an isolated soul could neither sin nor die.
Mortality is a characteristic that, in the New Testament, applies only to the earthly body (Romans 6:12; 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:53ff; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 5:4). The earthly body belongs to the visible and transient sphere (2 Corinthians 4:18). However, the new body, which the person will receive in their continuous existence at the last day's resurrection, is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:35-54; 2 Corinthians 5:1-10; Philippians 3:21).
Scripture describes the origin of humans and animals alike not philosophically but vividly, attributing 'nefesh' (the warm breath manifesting the principle of life) to both. When Scripture describes the creation of the first human, it mentions only the body formed from the clay of the ground and the breath of life, nothing else. This view is maintained in later texts (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Ezekiel 33:3; especially 37:7–10). Nonetheless, it leaves no doubt about the higher origin of the human soul and its nature, which is essentially different from the body: God breathes the breath of life directly into humans, whom He created in His own image, unlike the animals, among which there is none like him; only humans have 'neshamah' (a rational soul). The soul is not subject to the fate of the body; thus, it has a different kind of existence: "The dust (the human body) returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Ezekiel 37:7,10). "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." (Matthew 10:28; cf. 16:26) It draws a parallel with the spirituality of God: "For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, the things of God no one knows except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11) The soul has the capacity for truth recognition (Job 20:3, 32:8; Exodus 28:3; Psalms 138:14), thus it is different from the soul of an animal.
Even in the 19th century, many rationalist historians of religion believed that the older books of the Old Testament do not speak of the soul's life after death (some modern scholars think they are silent on this matter only to avoid endorsing the animism that was extremely widespread among Semites). In this matter, we must establish that:
- The entire Old Testament is directly and immediately focused not on the afterlife but on God. Yet, in this focus is implicitly included the belief in immortality, as the Savior indicates: "He is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
- It is also certain that God, in this matter too, gradually led His chosen people to a higher religious standpoint. He did not bypass the normal spiritual development Deus ex machina-style, but incorporated His revelations about the afterlife and thus about immortality into the phases of this development.
- Finally, it should not be overlooked that Scripture does not treat immortality as an abstract philosophical proposition but presents it in a tangible form, associated with the resurrection of the body.
In the first phase of revelation, due to the vagueness of concepts and perceptions regarding the afterlife, the sacred writers were influenced by the impression of experience: this present life, with its definite forms, joys, and colors, speaks to man; compared to it, the existence in the afterlife seems colorless, joyless, shadowy (Job 10:21, Psalms 88:12 114:17, Isaiah 38:18, etc.); although it is not the same for the righteous and the wicked (Deuteronomy 32:22). And the passing of this earthly life, the seemingly uniform march of all living into death, tunes the Old Testament contemplator to melancholy (Job 14:7–14, Ecclesiastes 2:14–16, 3:11–22, 6:6 9:4–6, etc.).
Yet, even the oldest books of Scripture are aware of the soul's life after death:
- Jacob refers to his and his fathers' earthly life as a pilgrimage (Genesis 47:9; cf. Hebrews 11:9),
- descending into Sheol, being gathered to one's ancestors, often does not simply mean burial (Genesis 15:5, 25:8, 35:29, 37:35, 49:32),
- evidence includes the prohibition and fact of conjuring spirits (Leviticus 19:31 20:6.27; Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:7-9).
EOB footnotes:
- HELL AND HADES
The King James Version caused confusion by translating both Greek words ᾅδης (hades) and Γέεννα (gehenna) as “hell”. This is often reflected in older Orthodox liturgical texts which say that “Christ descended into hell”. Properly speaking, “hell” is theologically equivalent to gehenna or to “the lake of fire” of the “second death” (Rev. 20:14; 21:8). On the other hand, hades is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew שְׁאוֹל (sheol) – the common place or state of the reposed. Paradise (Luke 23:43) or Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22) were understood as places or conditions within hades-sheol. Hence, the spirits of the righteous of old, as well as that of the repentant thief and of our Lord went into hades, but not into hell (gehenna or “the lake of fire”). The EOB makes this important distinction.
According to the NT, everyone will be resurrected, that is, physically brought back to life, and not for the purpose of getting a second chance. It is important to know that the New Testament Greek uses two different terms for "life": one is βίος (bíos), and the other is ζωὴ (zōḗ). The word 'bíos' is used to describe mere biological functions or existence, from which the word biology is derived. In contrast, 'zōḗ' suggests some kind of surplus or additional quality.
When Jesus speaks of the "righteous" receiving "eternal life" (zōḗ aiṓnios, ζωὴ αἰώνιος), it is important to clarify, that "eternal life" is not equivalent to mere infinite temporal existence: eternal life is not simply life that lasts forever or infinite existence, nor merely an extension of life. The distinctive quality of this life, zōḗ, is a lasting relationship with God and His beloved Son, therefore something much greater and richer than simple infinite existence.
'Zōḗ aiṓnios' means infinite temporal existence in an unending relationship with God, not just temporal existence. However, every soul has infinite existence, even if it does not have 'zōḗ aiṓnios'. "Eternal life" (zōḗ aiṓnios) is indeed a gift. But there is an existence (bíos) that is not a gift, which is so tormenting that people would rather seek death instead (Revelation 9:6).
A sinner in hell does not have zōḗ aiṓnios, only an endless bíos. This distinction is forgotten by the JWs when they argue from the biblical statement that "eternal life," or zōḗ aiṓnios, is the privilege of the saved, then how "the wicked" can exist forever. However, this contrived opposition lacks the requirement of scholarly exegesis and is obviously an eisegesis born out of a compulsion to conform to the annihilationism adopted from Adventists. The opposite of "eternal life," zōḗ aiṓnios, is not "eternal non-existence" in the sense of annihilation, but "eternal death," where "death" does not mean annihilation but separation from God. Thus, damnation is eternal 'bíos', mere existence without true "life" (zōḗ), i.e., without a relationship with God.
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aqwsed12345
@Vanderhoven7
It is shocking that the neo-Sadducees look at Matthew 10:28 EXCLUSIVELY at the second half of the verse, and even there they base it on a misleading translation, because it is completely misleading to translate the verb "apollumi" as "destroy", more correctly: "perish".
Mt 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."
Mt 10:6 - "Go rather to the lost (apollumi) sheep of Israel."
Mt 10:39 - "Whoever finds their life will lose (apollumi) it, and whoever loses (apollumi) their life for my sake will find it."
Lk 15:6 - "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi)."
Lk 15:9 - "And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost (apollumi) coin.'
Lk 15:24 - "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost (apollumi) and is found. So they began to celebrate."
Jn 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish (apollumi) but have eternal life."
Jn 18:9 - "This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost (apollumi) one of those you gave me."
The Greek word "apoleia" does not mean annihilation or complete non-existence, as some sects falsely teach, but rather signifies eternal punishment in the fire of hell, as unanimously testified by Greek lexicons and dictionaries. For a broader understanding of the word, see Mk 14:4; Mt 26:8; Acts 8:20. This word is also found in Rev 17:8,11, referring to the beast. Related sections, Rev 19:20 and Rev 20:10, inform us that the beast (along with Satan and the false prophet) will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. The same tragic fate awaits those who reject God (see Mt 25:41,46; 8:12; 10:28; 13:24-30,36-43,49-50; Mk 9:43-48; Heb 10:28-29; Rev 14:10-11; 20:15; 21:8). This related word, apollumi = destruction (Mt 10:28), can similarly be illustrated. Applying an exaggerated, literal interpretation of apollumi often leads to obvious absurdities (see Mt 10:6; Lk 15:6,9,24; Jn 18:9). Proper scriptural interpretation requires comparing scripture with scripture, evaluating the context, and correctly understanding Greek and Hebrew expressions.
In the New Testament, 'apollumi' as opposed to 'sōzō' (to save) and 'zōē aiōnios' (eternal life) signifies ultimate failure, not simply the extinction of physical existence, but eternal sinking into Hades, the hopeless fate of death... Here too, it does not simply mean the extinction of existence, but the endless, tormenting state of death.
Therefore, based on the biblical evidence, it can be determined that "apollumi," "apoleia," and similar root forms can have a whole range of meanings: "to be lost" (Mt 10:6,39; 15:24; 16:25; 18:11,14; Lk 15:4,6,8,9,24,32, etc.); "to be destroyed" (Mt 7:13; 9:17; 10:28; 2Pt 2:1; Rev 17:8,11, etc.); "to waste" (Mt 26:8; Mk 14:4); "to kill" (Mt 2:13; 12:14; 21:41, etc.); "to die" (Mt 5:29k; 26:52, etc.). Therefore, apoleia primarily does not mean "to annihilate," but "to be lost," "to be destroyed." Apoleia means "not the loss of existence/being, but the end of good (well) being.
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Sea Breeze
A sinner in hell does not have zōḗ aiṓnios, only an endless bíos. This distinction is forgotten by the JWs when they argue from the biblical statement that "eternal life," or zōḗ aiṓnios, is the privilege of the saved, then how "the wicked" can exist forever. However, this contrived opposition lacks the requirement of scholarly exegesis and is obviously an eisegesis born out of a compulsion to conform to the annihilationism adopted from Adventists.
The opposite of "eternal life," zōḗ aiṓnios, is not "eternal non-existence" in the sense of annihilation, but "eternal death," where "death" does not mean annihilation but separation from God. Thus, damnation is eternal 'bíos', mere existence without true "life" (zōḗ), i.e., without a relationship with God.Like a small child that has abused its mother who loves it the most, we have all gone astray and haven't regarded the enormity of God and his creation as something and someone to be cherished and something to be grateful for.
Since our sin is against the eternal goodness of God, our punishment is eternal. Every day for eternity the lost or perished soul will experience existence without any trace of the goodness of God.
This is what Jesus warned people about over and over.
how can ye escape the damnation of hell? - Jesus
It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. - Jesus
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BelisemDeBelimakom
Here is what I have found to these questions:
How does hellfire work? When did it start? How was it told to Adam & Eve? What was the criteria to go there or not?
From the book "The Forgotten Books of Eden", by Rutherford Platt (1926)The First Book of Adam and Eve
Chapter XLV - Why Satan didn't fulfil his promises. Description of hell.
1 Then Adam rose and prayed to God, saying, "See, this fire has separated us from the cave in which You have commanded us to live; but now, behold, we cannot go into it."
2 Then God heard Adam, and sent him His Word, that said:—
3 "O Adam, see this fire! How different the flame and heat thereof are from the garden of delights and the good things in it!
4 When you were under My control, all creatures yielded to you; but after you have transgressed My commandment, they all rise over you."
5 God said again to him, "See, O Adam, how Satan has exalted you! He has deprived you of the Godhead, and of an exalted state like Me, and has not kept his word to you; but has, after all, become your enemy. He is the one who made this fire in which he meant to burn you and Eve.
6 Why, O Adam, has he not kept his agreement with you, not even one day; but has deprived you of the glory that was on you—when you yielded to his command?
7 Do you think, Adam, that he loved you when he made this agreement with you? Or that he loved you and wished to raise you on high?
8 But no, Adam, he did not do all that out of love to you; but he wished to make you come out of light into darkness; and from an exalted state to degradation; from glory to abasement; from joy to sorrow; and from rest to fasting and fainting."
9 God also said to Adam, "See this fire kindled by Satan around your cave; see this wonder that surrounds you; and know that it will encompass about both you and your descendants, when you obey his command; that he will plague you with fire; and that you will go down into hell after you are dead.
10 Then you will see the burning of his fire, that will be burning around you and likewise your descendants. You will not be delivered from it until My coming; just like you cannot go into your cave right now because of the great fire around it; not until My Word comes and makes a way for you on the day My covenant is fulfilled.
11 There is no way for you at present to come from this life to rest, not until My Word comes, who is My Word. Then He will make a way for you, and you shall have rest." Then God called with His Word to the fire that burned around the cave, that it split itself in half, until Adam had gone through it. Then the fire parted itself by God's order, and a way was made for Adam*.
12 And God withdrew His Word from Adam.
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Vanderhoven7
So far gents you have failed to show me a single verse that suggests
1. where in the OT the religious rulers in Israel derived temporary torment after death and eternal torment as final punishment.
2. human souls are innately immortal
3. eternal torment of human beings is the nature of final punishment.
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Vanderhoven7
So Gentlemen
Where are the babies and young children that underwent Sodom's destruction? What are they experiencing?
Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or in torment in Sheol/Hades?
Or, are they, as I believe, resting in peace until the resurrection?
Here is clarity for you my friends!
And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell. Day and night for all eternity, the wicked will call out for mercy, but there will be none to save. Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain. Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing to comfort them. Jumping Jehosaphat 3:16
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TTWSYF
VH,
if I have your argument right, you think that after we die and are NOT written in the book of life, we would be sentenced to hell to die another death and then be destroyed in the fires of hell and that's it, End of story.
If that's your opinion, could you explain the details of why you think that?
We are made in God's image. Is that something that God would destroy?
I mean, he hasn't destroyed the fallen angels, shit, even the worms don't die in the unquenchable fire, what makes you think that human souls would? Just because it doesn't specifically say that souls endure the flames forever?
I think it's implied when looking at the whole of the scriptures and all of the tradition. {Before you go on about 'the traditions of men' you should acknowledge that the traditions of men are how we have the bible}.
When I read of Lazaras and the rich man being tormented and asking Abraham for a drop of water, I know that the rich man didn't just die. He wanted to be able to warn his family NOT to come to that place.
He certainly was suffering and maybe still to this day.
What say you about that?
TTWSYF