by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
@ Seabreeze - So you're saying that if I willfully sin for 840 months, (70 years) the God which you worship is going to punish me terribly - for all of eternity???????? 😕😕😕😕😕😕
And you think your "God" is loving & just? No human judge on earth would be as evil as that!
No human judge would , but we don’t offend human judges, we offend the creator of all. Big diff
@Sea Breeze
No one has a problem with eternal punishment. The problem is with eternal conscious punishment or eternal punishing. The wages of sin is death, not torment.
It is not strange that you can only present one verse in the OT to support eternal punishing and yet the word torment is not included.
On top of that, the word contempt is not what the unrighteous are described as experiencing. It is the righteous who eternally view the wicked with contempt.
Albert Barnes writes
"The word "contempt" (דראון derâ'ôn) means, properly, a repulse; and then aversion, abhorrence. The meaning here is aversion or abhorrence - the feeling with which we turn away from what is loathsome, disgusting, or hateful. Then it denotes the state of mind with which we contemplate the vile and the abandoned; and in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial. The word everlasting completes the image, meaning that this feeling of loathing and abhorrence would continue forever. In a subordinate sense this language might be used to denote the feelings with which cowards, ingrates, and apostates are regarded on earth; but it cannot be doubted that it will receive its most perfect fulfillment in the future world - in that aversion with which the lost will be viewed by all holy beings in the world to come."
So where do you think the religious rulers in Jesus day got the idea that the wicked experience torment after death and eternal torment after final judgment?
@VH
The devil is only sparsely mentioned in the OT but Jesus talked a lot about him. IT IS NOT SURPRISING THAT JESUS WOULD EXPAND UPON THE NATURE OF HELL AS WELL in the NT.
Christians use the NT as their primary textbook and Jesus as their primary teacher. And Jesus warned over and over about a literal, eternal hell (see Matthew 3:7, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 18:9-12, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-47, Luke 12:5, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 7, Revelation 14:11, Revelation 20:13-15, and Revelation 21:8).
What Jesus said can't be ignored and the early Christians took him at his word that he meant what he said, and said what he meant.
@ Boogerman - So you're saying that if I willfully sin for 840 months, (70 years) the God which you worship is going to punish me terribly - for all of eternity????????
I'm not saying that. A man who raised himself from the dead said that. Why would he lie?
@c SeaBreeze
I asked specifically for eternal torment from the Hebrew scriptures, .i.e., the Old Testament. So how did the rulers in Israel come up with Abraham's Bosom and Torment in Sheol/Hades?
Interesting that not one of the scriptures you list from the New Testament speaks of eternal torment or eternal pain for human beings. Eternal fire and eternal punishment simply stand for eternal destruction, not eternal existence. Babylon's torment lasts only one hour, but it's smoke ascends forever as a reminder of God's eternal eradication of sin and evil. Hebrews speaks of eternal judgment, not that there will be an ongoing or never-ending court case, but that a judgment will be made with eternal consequences for wicked human beings
Please supply the actual verses, not just the references that prove eternal torment of the wicked. How about the five most convincing verses to start with.
VH,
what makes you think that eternal hellfire must be present in the Old Testament? Is it somehow not valid because it’s in the New Testament and not in the Old Testament?
In the books of the Old Testament, from an eschatological perspective, the underworld was initially not distinguished separately. They only implicitly express the truth that the wicked cannot stand before God. The doctrine of damnation takes on more definite contours in the prophets: they speak of the eternal fire of divine wrath (Jer 4:4, 17:27, 21:12, 23:19, Ez 21:3); they declare that the wicked will be faint and powerless before God forever (Jer 51:57, Hab 2:13, Prov 9:18, Wis 3:2, 4:15, 5:24). Moreover, in form: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:3; cf. 2 Macc 7). Therefore, there is no basis for the thesis of the new rationalist school of the history of religions that "the Old Testament does not recognize eternal damnation; it was later adopted by Judaism from Zoroastrianism". This is contradicted by the fact that eternal damnation is a fundamental teaching of the New Testament. The Savior's teachings were not inspired by the history of religions. The Savior's teachings are the clearest and most definitive. "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food..." (Mt 25:41–46). He had often spoken of the unquenchable eternal fire, where the worm of the wicked does not die, and their fire is not quenched (Mt 5:22, Mk 9:42–47); warns against those who can throw both soul and body into Gehenna (Mt 10:28); speaks of the sin for which there is no forgiveness, neither in this age nor in the age to come (Mt 12:32). He emphasizes this in parables: the foolish virgins are locked out of the wedding feast into the outer darkness (Mt 25:10–12); the worthless servant is thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 25:21–39); talks about the harvest where the weeds are thrown into the fire (Jn 15:1–6), and the barren vine that is thrown into the fire (Mt 13:30,40). The apostles naturally teach the same. Saint Paul says: "Those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes 1:7–9; cf. 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:5–9, 6:4–23, Phil 3:19, Gal 6:8, Heb 10:27). According to Saint Peter, the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah awaits the ungodly (1 Pet 4:18, 2 Pet 2:4–8, 3:9, Jude 6). "But the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur; this is the second death" (Rev 21:8; cf. 19:3,20, 20:6–10, 22:15).
Difficulties: 1. "Eternal" in Scripture does not always mean endless, but simply a very long period of time. However, a) "forever and ever," which is often a descriptor of damnation, always means endless (Cf. Rev 1:19, 11:15, 15:17, 19:3, 20:10, 22:5, 1 Tim 1:17, 2 Tim 4:18, Gal 1:5.). b) Scripture also calls the eternal fire unquenchable (Mt 3:12, Mk 9:43, Lk 3:17.). c) Saint Augustine emphasizes strongly that Scripture speaks of eternal life and eternal damnation in a connected way; thus, either both are eternal or neither is. Otherwise, those who have moved beyond modern Protestant dogmatism, so-called historians of religion, conclude: "the gospel knows as little of the deliverance of the damned or of the restoration of all things as it does of their final, eternal annihilation" (Religion in Geschichte und Gegenwart (1st edition) V 1584). Therefore, when Scripture speaks of the death, destruction, or perishing of the wicked, it is meant in a moral sense, in the sense of spiritual death, or in a privative sense, sharply contrasted with eternal life.
2. God does not remain angry forever (Ps 103:9, Is 57:16). However, this is understood, in the context of the aforementioned and the general context, only as pertaining to the time of trial. Saint Augustine interprets this in contrast to the so-called "merciful ones".
3. Scripture occasionally speaks of the restoration of all things, of complete renewal. But, in the context of the text and the analogy of the New Testament, this refers to the restoration of the kingdom of the Savior, a new heaven, and a new earth (Acts 3:21); sometimes about the resurrection of the body (1 Cor 15:52), or the state of final glorification (Rev 21:5), which, however, does not exclude the second death.
The testimony of the early Church Fathers is unanimous and very decisive against opposing views. Against the Gnostics, who read only mercy from the New Testament, they emphasize that those who despise Christ's grace deserve eternal punishment all the more. Only Origen held the view that the teaching of the eternity of damnation is tailored to the understanding of the average Christians and is very salutary for them: it effectively deters from sin. However, those who have reached the standpoint of Christian enlightenment (the "gnosis") can attain a deeper understanding. The purpose of all punishment is purification, healing; and once this is achieved, often after incomprehensibly long periods, the punishment of damnation also comes to an end. These foundational thoughts were adopted by Athanasius, Didymus, and especially Gregory of Nyssa; though they did not draw from them the outright denial of the eternity of damnation as Origen did. The rest of the Greek Fathers and the Latins, especially Saint Augustine, take a strong stand against the so-called "merciful ones" (misericordes), who teach that over time every person, or at least every Christian, will be freed from damnation. Particularly decisive was Gregory the Great, who defends the eternity of damnation with the weapons of reason and strives to define the nature of the torments of damnation in detail. The practice of exorcisms, which assumes the conviction that there are irrevocably damned spirits, also sufficiently expresses the faith of the ancient Church.
Isaiah 33:11,14 - "You conceive chaff, you bring forth stubble; your breath is a fire that will consume you... The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: 'Who among us can live with the devouring fire? Who among us can live with everlasting flames?'"
Sirach 21:9 - "The assembly of the wicked is like a bundle of tow, and their end is a blazing fire."
Matthew 8:12 - "but the children of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:16-17 - "His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
Mark 9:43-49 - "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
Romans 2:6-9 - "For he will repay according to each one's deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
2 Peter 2:4 - "For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;"
Revelation 14:11 - "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Revelation 20:10,15 - "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Deuteronomy 32:22 - "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains."
Judith 16:17 - “Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; he will send fire and worms into their flesh; they shall weep in pain forever.”
Psalm 21:9 - "You will make them as a blazing oven when you appear. The Lord will swallow them up in his wrath, and fire will consume them."
Sirach 21:9-10 - "An assembly of the lawless is like a bundle of tinder, and their end is a blazing fire. The way of sinners is paved with smooth stones, but at its end is the pit of Hades."
Isaiah 33:14 - "The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: 'Who among us can live with the devouring fire? Who among us can live with everlasting flames?'"
Isaiah 34:9-10 - "Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its soil into sulfur; its land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever."
Matthew 8:12 - "but the children of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Luke 13:28 - "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrown out."
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
Revelation 14:10 - "they will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
Revelation 21:8 - "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Isaiah 66:24 - "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Daniel 12:2 - "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matthew 25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Luke 3:17 - "His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope."
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"
Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Revelation 20:15 - "And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 21:27 - "But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."
