Your position VH just does not make sense. How could God destroy his creation of humanity but he not destroy his creation of fallen angels? It just doesn’t ring true does it?
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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aqwsed12345
@Vanderhoven7
"since immortality is something we must wait till the resurrection to put on, I would say that is proof enough that human souls are not innately immortal."
Ehehe, that was a self-goal, mate, since you're quoting the Scripture wrong in the first place, which just says that the mortal body is what must put on immortality:
- "For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability and this mortal body puts on immortality..." (1 Corinthians 15:54-54)
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Vanderhoven7
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.Note: those who are dead and those living at Christ's coming will be changed and given immortality.52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Those living at Christ's coming will be changed53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..Thus immortality is something that we do not have currently.Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment? -
aqwsed12345
The whole context of 1Cor 15 is about the body (soma). 15:53 literally: "this mortal one" refering to the body (soma), which needs to put on the immortality.
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Vanderhoven7
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..Thus immortality is something, alive or dead that we do not have currently.Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment?Was he saying: If Christ be not raised you Corinthians and everyone else will be tormented forever and ever....so eat drink and be merry until your torture begins. Oh wait, if you eat drink and engage in immoral practices, your pain levels in hell will increase exponentially.Why not start answering my questions instead of ignoring them?Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor? -
Sea Breeze
@VH7
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Jesus
Jesus said that hell is just as eternal as heaven is. Are you going to try and claim one part of the sentence is literal and another part of the same sentence is symbolic?
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Vanderhoven7
@Sea Breeze
Both are literal.
Eternal judgment (Heb.6:2) is literal as well....but does eternal judgment require a never ending court case? There is a distinction between eternal judgment and eternal judging.
So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor? -
aqwsed12345
In the Old Testament, the books written during the Hellenistic period first introduce the idea that the wicked will face punishment in the afterlife (Dan 12:2; 2 Macc 6:26; Wis 4:19; 5:3-13; cf. the so-called Isaiah Apocalypse from this period: Isa 14:11; 24:21-22). Some prophets suggest that the wicked will go to the Valley of Hinnom, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched (Isa 66:24; cf. Jer 7:32; 19:6). This valley (Ge-Hinnom, from which the term Gehenna derives) was located south of Jerusalem and was once a site for human sacrifices by fire; later, it became a dump where waste was burned.
Jesus speaks in the language of contemporary apocalyptic literature about undying worms and unquenchable fire, as well as outer darkness, wailing, gnashing of teeth, and eternal torment (Mk 9:43; Mt 8:12; 18:8). He warns that this fate is not just for Satan (Mt 25:41; cf. Mt 5:29; 13:42; 22:13). Saint Paul writes of eternal destruction, ruin, damnation (1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; Rom 9:22; Phil 3:19; 1 Tim 6:9), and speaks of the lost (1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 4:3). From his other statements, we learn that these expressions mean God will eternally separate the obstinate from Himself (2 Thess 1:8-9), their fate will be agony and torment (Rom 2:9), their existence is not truly life but rather akin to death (Rom 6:16,21,23; 8:6,13), because they are excluded from the kingdom of God (Gal 5:21; 1 Cor 6:9; Eph 5:5), which is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17). The Book of Revelation recalls the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah: torment with fire and brimstone, and a lake burning with sulfur (14:10; 19:21; 20:10-15; 21:8), while Saint John speaks of eternal death, the negative counterpart to the eternal life found in Christ (1 Jn 5:16-17).
From the first century onwards, with few exceptions, Church Fathers have taught that hell begins immediately after death, not just after the final judgment. Later, influenced by Hellenism, Clement of Alexandria and then Origen believed that hell is not eternal but ends after eons. This idea was adopted by others like Hilary, Ambrose, and Nyssen, but the 543 Council of Constantinople rejected it, and this judgment was adopted by the magisterium. In the East, John Chrysostom, and in the West, Augustine, were the most definitive advocates for the eternity of hell, though they allowed that the intercession of the faithful might mitigate the sufferings of the damned. The definitive formulation and public dissemination of these doctrines are attributed to Gregory the Great (†604), as well as to the apostolic constitution of Pope Benedict XII, which was reaffirmed by the Council of Florence. The existence of hell as a punishment was already articulated in the Creed of Damasus around 500, establishing it as a dogma.
We can consider damnation as the negative of eternal life. Since the fundamental need of humans is love, and since heaven represents the fulfillment of this need, the torments of hell can be caused by the insatiability of passions which, on earth, often lead to the greatest sins against love. These passions persist in the hereafter, for those who persist in sin are damned. Such passions can include pride, unrestrained desire for power, greed, selfishness, envy, desire for revenge, schadenfreude, the urge to torture others, the need to exploit others, sensuality, etc. Those who cannot rid themselves of these at least at the moment of death become entrenched in them and will be eternally tormented by them since there is no way to gratify them in the afterlife. The impotent rage of the damned thus turns against themselves.
Moreover, it's highly probable that the damned cannot interact with each other, hence they cannot torment each other. They chose self-love instead of self-sacrificial love on earth; their fate is therefore eternal isolation. They receive no love from anyone, cannot share their helplessness, nor can they make anyone feel their rage. Many theologians refer to this concept of darkness in the biblical descriptions of damnation.
The Bible writes of eternal fire, unquenchable fire, and a lake burning with sulfur. In the Patristic era, this image was most commonly associated with the pangs of conscience. However, since the Middle Ages, scholars have considered it a real fire, but not one that involves the oxidation process requiring combustible materials.
This refined form of fire would affect the bodies of the damned similarly to burning iron or cause torments like the "burning" pain of certain wounds. Following Aquinas, many imagine its effect on the separated soul in such a way that perception itself chains the soul's attention to tormenting thoughts and feelings. It's similar to how a mentally exhausted person cannot escape a troubling thought or feeling because it obsessively returns and holds their attention captive (in psychological terms: the thought or feeling "perseverates"), even though they do everything to think of something else.
Modern theologians generally start from the premise that fire in the Bible is most often an accompaniment or sign of God's appearance or presence (the burning bush, the pillar of fire leading the Israelites in the desert, tongues of fire, etc.). Therefore, mentioning the fire of hell merely signifies the presence of God's judgment, meaning we should not think of it as real fire: the damned are additionally tormented by the knowledge that they brought God's judgment upon themselves and must acknowledge God's infinite power and their own foolishness. The "fire" may be a symbolic indication of this tormenting knowledge.
Some accept the symbolic nature of the fire but still see the need for some form of perceivable suffering so that the body too partakes in the torments, just as the bodies of the blessed will partake in glorification.
The general adjective for damnation is "eternal" (aiónios). However, in the Bible, this sometimes only signifies a longer duration of time, thus it does not necessarily imply the eternity of hell. But when we add some other statements, we see that aiónios in relation to hell indicates endlessness. We encounter data in several places that undoubtedly prove endlessness: a) Jesus repeats the words of Isaiah: their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched (Mk 9:48 paralleled). – b) Instead of eternal fire, several times there is mention of unquenchable fire (pyr asbeston) (Mk 9:43; Mt 3:12; Lk 3:17), or that its smoke rises forever and ever (in saecula saeculorum = eis tus aiónás tón aiónón). – c) Jesus mentions a sin for which there is no forgiveness, neither in this age nor in the age to come (Mt 12:32), likens the wicked to weeds (Mt 13:40) and dried-up branches (Jn 15:6) that are thrown into the fire and burned. The parables of the ten virgins (Mt 25:12) and the wedding feast (Lk 14:24) end with a definitive rejection (cf. also Mt 13:49; 25:30). – d) Relevant biblical passages call the final fate of the sinner death, e.g., "...there is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that" (1 Jn 5:16).
We might think that the blessed, in whom love has reached its perfect form, would pity the damned, especially if they were bound by ties of love on earth. It seems even more troubling to their happiness that they, like the people on earth, cannot assist their damned brethren.
On the contrary, the damned cannot be pitied because not a single extenuating circumstance can be brought forward in their favor. If there were such a circumstance, God would have applied it, and they would not have ended up there. The blessed see that only those are damned who could not be shown mercy because they permanently rejected it. The blessed see and judge everything according to God's perspectives. Their will and judgment are so aligned with God's that in matters of fraternal and familial love, they think like divine wisdom: they do not consider those who have permanently rejected not just God but also them with hatred or mourning, but with respect for God's holiness, justice, and mercy. Furthermore, it's very likely that the damned do not even seek pity or intercession. For those who wish to be sufficient unto themselves, they see humiliation in such acts.
Since the gravity of so-called mortal sins is not the same, their punishment cannot be the same either. According to revelation, God pays everyone according to their deeds (Mt 16:27; Rom 2:6). Jesus said this about the Pharisees: "They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. They will be punished most severely" (Lk 20:47; cf. Lk 12:47-48; Rev 18:6).
There can be various degrees of opposition to God, both objectively and subjectively. This is already voiced by the wisdom literature of the Old Testament (Wis 6:6). Jesus reproaches the inhabitants of Chorazin and Bethsaida: "It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum!... If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day... It will be more bearable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (Mt 11:22-24).
It is likely that inequality exists not only in terms of sensory sufferings but also in experiencing the loss of purpose, meaning everyone experiences the absence of homecoming and completeness to the extent they have turned away from the source of life.
However, we must be cautious not to imagine the torments of the damned based on the principle of "suffering in what one has sinned" as depicted in Dante's major work or by certain painters. This is because humans tend to project their own repressed aggressiveness into anthropomorphic forms of eternal torments. There is also no basis for the claim that the damned are tortured by demons or that they torment each other. Even less so because it is a highly probable opinion that both the demons and they live in complete isolation.
Since revelation states that damnation is a state of hopelessness, it is out of the question that the torments of the damned would be somewhat reduced or even paused due to certain holy times or intercessions made on their behalf.
Furthermore, since the time for acquiring merit and accumulating evil merits ends with death, we cannot think of a significant worsening. If the "anima separata" exists, then the resurrection at the end of the world brings change, but this does not imply a significant worsening.
Revelation – as we have seen – undeniably teaches the concept of eternal damnation. It is mentioned seventy times in the New Testament, with Jesus referring to it twenty-five times.
However, the purpose of revelations about hell, as with other eschatological matters, is not to inform but to ensure that the reality of these concepts fruitfully influences our earthly behavior. Therefore, we must distance ourselves from the anthropomorphic imaginings of popular fantasy and, even within theology, draw a clear line between the explicit teachings of the Church and debatable theological conclusions. We should not regard or present the latter as certain.
Just as revelation does, in our perspective and preaching, we cannot separate hell from the other great realities; its existence is organically connected to that of heaven and purgatory, as well as the reality of grace and free will, not to mention God's salvific will, His infinite patience, His forgiving love that is "seventy times seven," salvation through the "votum sacramenti," and other doctrines. Only by situating these within the fullness of revelation can we be saved from the hell on earth of despair, senseless self-accusation, and the feeling of life's meaninglessness.
The existence of hell proclaims the seriousness of the divine Word. The first message of this demand is not a threat but the truth that God is love, who loved us before we loved Him, and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 Jn 4:9-10). Those who live in accordance with this truth (1 Jn 2:6) await eternal life (1 Jn 2:25). However, those who consciously and stubbornly choose to be sufficient unto themselves and reject love, exclude themselves from it, casting themselves into eternal damnation. Consequently, hell is not so much a punishment as it is the fruit, the logical consequence of sins. This understanding illuminates the inscription on Dante's hell, which states that it was not only God's power and wisdom but His ancient love (il primo amore) that created hell: power and wisdom allow for the rejection of offered love to permanently exclude someone from the fullness of love.
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Sea Breeze
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Jesus
VH7 - Both are literal
Glad we cleared that up. Another scripture identifies the nature of the eternal punishment that Jesus repeated warned us about.
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
That should be the end of discussion for those who do not read into scripture foreign meanings unknown to the apostles and their students.
Once a bible reader goes rogue (symbolic) you can make the scriptures say anything you want. For a powerful demonstration of this truth: JW's have been duped (through the raw power of symbolic interpretation) to do the opposite of what Jesus commanded regarding acceptance of the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" in Mt. 26: 27-28
They willingly reject the offer of forgiveness of sins from the Lord and are quite proud of it, even ranting on and on about what a sincere heart they have and how deceived everyone else is because of their pride. That fact is just beyond incredible and sends a chill down my spine everytime I think about it.
There is no possibility of winning a logical argument when the common meanings, definitioins, and plain reading of scripture are all scrambled together and laid out as in a buffet for a pick and choose smorgasborg. -
TTWSYF
Sea Breeze,
you are exactly right. When going rogue anything goes. That’s why there are 40,099-50,000 different types of Christianities. People read the Bible and totally reject the historical legitimate reasons for its use and development. As if they know better than the earliest Christians. I guess that’s what you say when you realize that you’re not actually a restoration movement, but rather a new semi faith.