What's next?

by lastmanstanding 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

Duran

These verses pertain to the coming Rapture of Saints (believers):...While I'm gone during this time, there will be the most fantastic party in heaven the universe has ever seen. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. In stark contrast, on earth, people will experience what it is like without the Holy Spirit (God on earth) restraining evil. It will be utterly horrifying.
If co-called Christians are gone during such time, why does it call for endurance and faith for them during that time? And how does the beast/8th king wage war and conquer them, if they are not here?
[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]
[ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
lastmanstanding

After the US launches their first strike, Daniel says that it “comes all the way to his end” and “there will be no (NATO) to help him”. USA is busted and Uncle Sam lays dead in the street.
Then out comes “the Beast”, and “the mark” that “no one may buy or sell” without it.
Christians at that time will be helped to discern what that “mark” is and they will refuse it. It will be a tough time. How will Christians be treated during this time… That remains to be seen, but endurance will be essential.
When relying on historical treatments of persona non-grata I will guess the world will round up these Christians and incarcerate them. It’s been that way forever.
Jesus said he”d gather the faithful at that time. So, I’m am of the thought that this works out well. Easy to discern His own, as they got jammed into concentration camps.
Sea Breeze

@Duran
The first three chapters of Revelation are about the Church. After chapter 3, the Church (all born again believers since Pentecost) are not seen again for the rest of the book (Tribulation) until Christ returns to defeat the Anti-Christ and accept the throne (now whole-heartedly) offered to him by his brothers - the Jews. So, all of Revelation after chapter 3 refers to various people separate from Church-Age believers.

The first time he came was to be a curse, in our place. So, the people cursed him by murdering him. "Cursed is every man who hangeth upon a tree". " He who knew no sin became sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God". His loss was our incredible gain. Christians trade places positionally with Jesus. This is a very favored position, in exchange for nothing more than trusting Jesus.
So, like you asked: If co-called Christians are gone during such time, why does it call for endurance and faith for them during that time? And how does the beast/8th king wage war and conquer them, if they are not here?
Just because Christians are evacuated out during the GT doesn't mean that God has stopped being in the business of saving people - far from it.

1. People who become believers after the Rapture are commonly referred to as Tribulation Saints. There is some debate as to whether or not these believers make up part of the "Bride of Christ" or not. But, it is clear that many believers will emerge on earth at this time but will likely be killed for their faith in Jesus. They are not forgotten since they became family members too. All that is left of "The Church" on earth at this time is the empty husk of Christianity, The Laodicean Church. The real Church will be gone, in heaven having the biggest party you can imagine. But, Jesus will still save individual believers who put faith in him...as he always has. People were always saved by faith regardless of the time period they lived in.
2. Then, there are Jews who put faith in Christ after Jesus raises up the real 144K male Jewish virgin evangelists and also sends the "two witnesses" to Jerusalem (Likely Moses and Elijah). If you'll recall, they were previously raptured to Heaven, in the case of Elijah, rather dramatically in a chariot of fire. Remember: "All Israel will be saved" ... that is, ALL those that are still alive at his return. A remnant will be saved.
3. Then, there is perhaps 1/4 of the general population that are still alive on earth after all the wars of the Anti-Christ. Jesus makes it clear that if they did not go along with the murderous plan of the A/C to murder all the Jews, then as King he welcomes them into his Millenium Reign, which will be global, but will still have many nations under his jurisdiction -

- And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. - Jesus
As you can see, this commonly accepted endtimes scenario is vastly different from the WT .God is in the business of saving people all they way to the Millinial Reign and during it as well. People on earth during the Thousand Year Reign will still have their sin natures to deal with. Christians on the other hand are totally glorified in their soul, body and spirit after Glorification. Right now, a Christian only receives a new spirit at his moment of Salvation - a "down payment" or, "ernest" money as the King James puts it. Christians still deal with the sin nature in their bodies and in their soul (minds). But at the Rapture, Christians will have the sin nature permanently removed forever, receiving a purified soul and a glorified body (like the body Jesus received after his resurrection) .... thank God!
Duran

The first three chapters of Revelation are about the Church. After chapter 3, the Church (all born again believers since Pentecost) are not seen again for the rest of the book (Tribulation) until Christ returns to defeat the Anti-Christ....Just because Christians are evacuated out during the GT doesn't mean that God has stopped being in the business of saving people - far from it.
In your wacky notion of a rapture, you have so-called Christians being raptured up and approved of before ever being tested/refined. You think ALL as is so-called Christians today are good-to-go at any time. Then when they ALL are raptured that somehow there will still be non-Christian people here left to be ruled over by the anti-Christ in order for them to be tested and put their faith in Jesus?
That is not how it works.
The whole point of the anti-Christ/8th king is to put to the test/refine ALL those claiming to be Christians now. This is what is known as the 'hour of judgment' from God. During that time one either accepts the MOTB and supports the 8th king thereby rejecting God or one worships God thereby refusing the to take the MOTB and to support the 8th king.
True believers in God and his Christ will refuse the 8th king and suffer tribulation under his 42-month rule, they are not raptured up prior to such time. It is the result of going through that tribulation and enduring faithfully that enables them to live in/be a part of God's kingdom. (And for some among them to rule with Jesus.)
[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
Rev 13:5,7,10;14:6,7,9-12;15:2;20:4,6;7:9,10,13-17
Sea Breeze

1 Corinthians 11:19
“For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.”
Church- Age Christians have an approved status with God now.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. - Romans 8
They have as a witness the spirit of Christ that resides inside them.
“If any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his.”
Like in a real harvest, there are the “first fruits”, then the general harvest, after that the gleanings.
Sea Breeze

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
The way in which God deals with man changes a bit from dispensation to dispensation. We are at the end of the church-age (age of grace as opposed to Law).
Like I previously stated, man was always saved by faith through grace regardless of the dispensation though.
Out of all the dispensations, the sweetest deal offered is in the church-age.
During The GT, believers will have a rougher go of it. During that time, especially for the Jews, “he that endures until the end will be saved”.
But, without question, like in the scriptures I presented, Church-Age believers enjoy salvation NOW.
”and no one shall pluck them out of my hand”
DesirousOfChange

This discussion board attracts all sorts of people; the only thing we have in common is an interest in Jehovah's Witnesses. Some are informative, clear-thinking individuals. Some are not, but open to contrary thoughts. And then there are 'the prophets' who promote all sorts of predictions and off the wall beliefs.

The OP (and others like him) needs to take a deep breath and reevaluate his approach Bible prophecy.

Honest, guys, God did not appoint you to be modern-day prophets. And as expositors, you fail. As an earlier comment said: "when these predictions do not lead to divine intervention and the establishment of god's kingdom, people ~~will learn their lesson and stop making predictions~~ will wait for the next 'time of distress' and make the same predictions all over again."

Maybe see a counselor.
Viv-- That has to be the best post you've made! Right on the mark! Especially the final thought.
Doc
Duran

Church- Age Christians have an approved status with God now.
Funny how you just ignore 2 Thess 1:7-10 in that it is AT the revelation from heaven with his angels is when Jesus comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones. This period is definitely referring to post-trib time which rules out your notion of a grand ole party pre-trib.
You also neglect to explain how/why holy ones need to endure during the time the MOTB is being given which is during the 42 months of the 8th king.
Also, you fail to acknowledge that among those that come to life and rule with Jesus are those that do not take the mark, therefore they were here during the time it was being given. And note that at that point is the first resurrection and since they didn't receive the MOTB during the 42 months, then this means the first resurrection occurs after the 42/GT, not before at your so-called rapture point prior to the GT/42 months.
Being 'approved' is a result of enduring faithfully down to the end of one's life. In this case though we are talking about those living during the 'hour of judgment' by Jehovah that he uses the 8th kings as his means for that judgment period. All have to endure during that time to be 'approved' when Jesus comes after those 42 months.
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
[ 7 so that you do not lack in any gift at all, while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.]
[ 7 in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being tested by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.]
[13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.]
[9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.]
[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]
[ 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.]
Sea Breeze

Duran,
Rightly divide. All scripture is true, not just some. Your scenario fails TO EXPLAIN many of the scriptures I provided. My explanation accomodates all. It is not mine though. It is the one I "received".... from previous Christians.
Duran

Your scenario fails TO EXPLAIN many of the scriptures I provided.
Where are all your scriptures you provided?
You mean like this one:
But I digress. Immediately after the marriage supper of the Lamb, Christ will visibly return to this earth to execute judgment on the Anti-Christ, put down evil, and set up His kingdom. He returns “with all His saints” (1 Th. 3:13), not just with the Church. Prior to the Tribulation the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, those of us alive at that time will be changed, and together we shall all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 sets this glorious hope, commonly called the Rapture, before us.
[ 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.]
[ 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.]
Do you realize that you cited Scriptures having to do with Jesus' presence/coming and Paul makes clear that that will not take place until first the MOL/apostasy takes place?
[2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,...3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.]
The MOL is the same as the anti-Christ/8th king/KOTN. There will be no coming/presence of Jesus and his chosen being gathered to him until first the MOL comes first. After the 42 months/apostasy of the MOL/anti-Christ/8th king/KOTN is when Jesus comes with his angels and gathers his chosen.
[ 31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days.]
[ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

What's next?

1 Corinthians 11:19

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