Kerry, Kerry, Kerry,
Early Christians didn't have the NT, it hadn't been written yet. They had some letters, that's all.
What do you think the letters were other than scripture?
What's next?
by lastmanstanding 77 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sea Breeze
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KerryKing
Letters 😃
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Sea Breeze
So you deny the books in the New Testament are Gods Word. Ok. Bye, bye now.
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Sea Breeze
@Duran
You just showed that you are aware that during the GT people are saved by their faith enduring the hardships upon them at that time. And YES, there is salvation NOW in having that faith because that is the promise/understanding attached to this faith.
You are adding to scripture. Gods Word presents a past tense, finished condition for church-age believers, not a “promise” like you are stating. You cant have it both ways. It is inconsistent to say Christians are saved now at the moment they are born again; but the Tribulation saints aren’t saved until later when they have endured to the end.
Those two conditions are NOT the same. Something has changed.
That something is the rapture and the emergence of the tribulation saints after the Church is gone.
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Duran
@ SB
Will the presence/coming of Jesus and his chosen being gathered to him, will that occur before or after the MOL/apostasy comes? 2 Thessalonians 2:1,3
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[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.]
Who are the people at that time that know their God that will prevail and act effectively, meaning will not be led into apostasy? (Are they pre-rapture people or people left here after rapture occurs.)
Do those people know their God NOW today?
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Sea Breeze
Duran,
You still are trying to ignore the scriptures I present and the fundamental problem you have is with trying to lump Church-Age Christians who have been saved with Tribulation Saints who may be saved. Until you address how BOTH are true, not just one to the exclusion of the other, your theology will be inconsistent. If inconsistent, it is very likely to be wrong.
Regarding your last post. I think you will find this source to provide a very even-handed treatment of the point I believe you are trying to make. -
Duran
@SB
Do you agree/understand that Rev 20 verse 4 speaks of some of those that did not take the MOTB, etc will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years. In order to refuse the MOTB one would have had to be on hand living during such a period in order to refuse it.
[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]
So, with that said, do you agree that in regard to these that will rule with Jesus, that they were here living during the time of the 42 months of the 8th king refusing to support him?
Do you say that these ones that will rule with Jesus are they part of the bride of Christ? If so, will they miss out on the marriage supper, 'the most fantastic party in heaven the universe has ever seen' as you said?
Also, verses 5,6 it says that this is the timing of the 'first resurrection' when these come to life to rule for the 1,000 years.
[ 5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]
At John 6:39 Jesus says that this resurrection occurs on what is called the 'last day'.
[ 39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]
At 2 Peter 3:8 it says:
[8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.]
Putting this all together, the first resurrection cannot happen any sooner than the first day of the 1,000 yearlong 'last day' and this 'last day' has to occur after the 42 months because some of those that will rule with Jesus have to be on hand during the 42 months in order for it to be said of them that they 'had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand'.
Do you agree with my reasoning there or do you believe that the first resurrection/last day/1,000 years begin before the 42 months of the 8th king?
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Anony Mous
Funny thing about these predictions, Biden was too senile and corruptly involved to actually do anything about either Iran or China. So nothing happened, no big mobilization, prediction failed.
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Duran
So nothing happened, no big mobilization, prediction failed.
Or it is right on track and anytime now Iran will attack Israel and US and other countries will jump in to defend Israel which will bring in China, Russia, NK to aid Iran. Then with war, no elections in November to keep Trump out and put the UN in.
Will Biden Take the U.S. Into a War With Iran? (reason.com)
The Biden administration affirmed again on Wednesday that it will help defend Israel in case of a conflict with Lebanon or Iran, as it did during clashes this April. And the administration has hinted before that it will get involved directly if Israel faces military setbacks in Lebanon. Israeli leaders may have been betting on exactly that outcome.
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Sea Breeze
Just trying to work through some of your definitions here.
Are you assuming that the Last Day, the 1st Resurrection and the Rapture are all the same event?
If so, you need to take into consideration that the first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4). The Old Testament saints will also be raised at the end of the tribulation, and they are also part of the first resurrection.