by lastmanstanding 77 Replies latest watchtower bible
9 months ago - Basically it is Iranian proxies declaring war on Israel, which they did decades ago by their establishment documents and again 3 weeks ago when they invaded unoccupied Israeli land.
9 months ago - Will attacks from Hamas on Israel trigger WW3?
This is what was being taught in the first Christian congregations:
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:23
Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 4:25
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The only way for all the scriptures to be true is to "rightly divide" God's word dispensationally. The word 'church" doesn't appear in Revelation after Ch. 3 because she is GONE. The command to "rightly divide" the word of God implies that there is a way to WRONGLY DIVIDE the word of God.
The early disciples, some trained by the apostles believed in a pre-tribulation ratpture as well. Here are a couple examples:
Irenaeus
(130 A.D. – 202 AD) Irenaeus was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise,Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.
In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.
Cyprian
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.
In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation..” Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.”Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.
The Early Church Believed In The Rapture
The ancient writings are clear – the belief in the Rapture has existed since the days of the Apostles.
Although there are not a great number of writings on the end times from the early centuries of the church, there is no question that there was a belief in the Rapture among the church fathers and they taught it with strong language and scriptural support. In terms of the timing of the Rapture, the early church fathers placed it before the end times Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation.
For God has not destined us for wrath - 1 Thess. 5: 9
Church-age believers are the bride of Christ. God is not a wife-beater.
From a Scriptural perspective, (as far as I can see!) all of earth's inhabitants, whether Christian or non-Christian, will be given a clear choice - worship/serve either the wild beast or God:
Revelation 13:7,11,12 - "And it [the wild beast] was given authority over every tribe, people, language, & nation.... another beast...required all the earth and its people to worship the first beast.."
Revelation 14:6,7 - "Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every every tribe, people, language, & nation. “Fear GOD,” he shouted. “Give glory to HIM. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship HIM who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”
Event "God's organization" - via trollies & door-knocking - couldn't reach every tribe, people, language, & nation with such a message.
From a Scriptural perspective, (as far as I can see!) all of earth's inhabitants, whether Christian or non-Christian, will be given a clear choice - worship/serve either the wild beast or God:
Yes, that will be the hard choice for people alive on earth THEN. But, that is NOT the choice before people NOW.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16: 31
If you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9 AMP
Only cults are looking forward to the GT as a means of Salvation. For Christians, God's grace & THE RAPTURE is their "blessed hope".
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men... Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. - Titus 2: 11-12 KJV
From a Scriptural perspective, (as far as I can see!) all of earth's inhabitants, whether Christian or non-Christian, will be given a clear choice - worship/serve either the wild beast or God:
That's it, you couldn't have stated it any simpler.
Only cults are looking forward to the GT as a means of Salvation. For Christians, God's grace & THE RAPTURE is their "blessed hope".
rev 13:10;matt 24:9,13,29-31;2 Thess 1:7-10;luke 21:25-28
The GT gives the chance to show/prove one's faith. Being willing to undergo/endure not being able to buy/sell, being taken captive/killed for refusing to support the 8th king during his 42-month rule shows/proves that you have faith that that will only occur for a short time and then Jesus will come and rescue/relieve you from such and then you will live under God's kingdom rule. That is how one's faith saves them.
en·dure -suffer (something painful or difficult) patiently:
faith - complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
[ 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
[8 By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift.]
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And do you have any response to the fact that Jesus' presence/coming, and his chosen being gathered to him will not occur until the MOL/apostasy comes first? 2 Thessalonians 2:1,3
The GT gives the chance to show/prove one's faith.
Duran,
Think about it. Why would a Christian need to suffer to prove their faith when the many scriptures I presented prove Christians enjoy Salvation NOW?
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Your theology requires ignoring all these scriptures above. Remember, ALL scripture is inspired and beneficial for teaching... not just some of them. Rightly Divide!
The reality is that the Church will be gone and along with it some of the perks they enjoyed. People can still be saved by faith during the GT, like you say; but that aint us. They will have to endure MUCH hardship and probably most will be murdered or die prematurely due to starvation or other unsavory conditions.
All scripture is inspired - refers to the OT, the NT didn't even exist yet when that was written.
What? That's crazy. The apostles were writing NT scripture. I don't know what you are trying to prove. I don't know what your point is.
Scripture says that if we teach a gospel other than what the apostles taught we are cursed.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. - Gal. 1: 8-9
The NT is the PRIMARY scripture for Christians. Early Christians considered it their only textbook, as do pretty much Christians today.
Think about it. Why would a Christian need to suffer to prove their faith when the many scriptures I presented prove Christians enjoy Salvation NOW?
Your theology requires ignoring all these scriptures above.
The reality is that the Church will be gone and along with it some of the perks they enjoyed. People can still be saved by faith during the GT, like you say; but that aint us. They will have to endure MUCH hardship and probably most will be murdered or die prematurely due to starvation or other unsavory conditions.
You just showed that you are aware that during the GT people are saved by their faith enduring the hardships upon them at that time. And YES, there is salvation NOW in having that faith because that is the promise/understanding attached to this faith. This is exactly why understanding and having this faith NOW will be critical to the ones that will willingly refuse the 8th king.
But with your wacky notion that every person having that faith NOW will get raptured up at that start of the 8th king, leaving 100% of people that lack that faith NOW and then somehow from among these same people left here, that didn't make the rapture, they are to be ones that have too instantaneous on day one of 8th king's rule have faith and belief in Jehovah and Jesus and refuse to support/worship him/take the MOTB, is absurd.
You are ignoring the Scriptures and their context. They clearly show that those that already have faith and belief in the promises connected to such faith, these are the ones that undergo such time faithfully enduing knowing that it means everlasting life in God's kingdom after the 8th king rule.
[10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]
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[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.]
Who are the people at that time that know their God that will prevail and act effectively, meaning will not be led into apostasy? Do those people know their God NOW today?
[10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
At that time, in that day is referring to the revelation/coming of Jesus from heaven with his angels. Who are his holy ones and those that exercised faith?
[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]
Who are 'you' and 'us' referring to at that time and what 'tribulation' are they receiving 'relief' from?
Lastly, will the presence/revelation/coming of Jesus and his chosen being gathered to him, will that occur before or after the MOL/apostasy comes? 2 Thessalonians 2:1,3
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For God has not destined us for wrath - 1 Thess. 5: 9
This does not mean that they do not go through the GT. It means the wrath that they will not receive is that of which those get for taking the MOTB.
[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath,]
[12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,]
Early Christians didn't have the NT, it hadn't been written yet. They had some letters, that's all. The NT wasn't compiled until hundreds of years later.
Don't take my word for it, a quick research into Bible history proves it. That doesn't mean the NT is invalid, far from it, but the fact is that it didn't exist when those words 'all scripture is inspired ' were written, that's fact.
