deleted by me, because what's the point.
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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aqwsed12345
@Duran
While you may claim not to "parrot" JW interpretations, much of your eschatological framework aligns with their overall method of reading apocalyptic texts: rigid literalism and speculative sequencing of future events. The NWT is widely criticized for its theological bias, particularly in passages related to Christ's deity (e.g., John 1:1, Colossians 1:15-20) and eschatology. While you state that you consult other translations, your arguments often reflect the linguistic and theological assumptions embedded in the NWT. Using a more scholarly and widely accepted translation, like the NRSVue or ESV, would ensure that your interpretations are not unduly influenced by the NWT’s peculiar renderings.
While you distance yourself from certain specific JW interpretations (e.g., the timing of Christ’s kingship in 1914 or the first resurrection in 1918), your broader framework—such as equating the MOL with the 8th king, a rigidly literal interpretation of the 42 months, and a future physical reign on earth—still reflects an eschatological approach that relies on speculative and selective literalism, a hallmark of JW theology. Simply disagreeing with JWs on certain points does not exempt your overall framework from critique, especially when it relies on similar interpretative methods.
You assert that your interpretations are derived directly from Scripture. However, your approach selectively applies literalism to symbolic texts like Revelation, leading to conclusions that overlook the genre and purpose of apocalyptic literature. Revelation 13’s 42 months is symbolic of a period of intense persecution and opposition to God, not a literal three-and-a-half-year rule of a specific political entity like the "8th king." The 8th king (Revelation 17:11) symbolizes recurring systems of human rebellion against God, culminating in a final opposition before Christ's return. It is not limited to a singular future ruler.
Equating the MOL with the 8th king and other apocalyptic figures (e.g., King of the North, small horn) is speculative and unsupported by Scripture. Paul’s reference to the MOL in 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks to a spiritual rebellion, which Catholic teaching sees as applicable across history, not confined to one individual or regime. Your claim that the MOL sits in God’s temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) being the same as the 8th king in Revelation 17 misreads both texts. The "temple" in Paul’s writing likely refers to the Church or God's spiritual dwelling, not a literal structure tied to a specific political entity.
Apocalyptic literature uses vivid symbols, not to create a precise timeline of future events, but to convey spiritual truths about God’s ultimate victory over evil. Over-literalizing these texts, as you do with the 42 months and the 8th king, distorts their theological message.
You cite Mark 13:24-26 to assert that Christ’s return occurs after a singular, future tribulation period. Catholic teaching agrees that Christ’s second coming will follow great tribulation, but it views tribulation as a recurring reality, not a one-time event. Catholic theology recognizes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 as a historical fulfillment of Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, prefiguring ongoing trials faced by the Church throughout history. The GT is not limited to a single end-time event but represents the broader struggle between the Church and the forces of evil (John 16:33; Revelation 12:13-17).
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ’s return will be visible and glorious (Acts 1:11; Matthew 24:30), culminating in the final resurrection and judgment. This return is not tied to a 1,000-year earthly kingdom but marks the consummation of God’s eternal reign (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).
Your interpretation of the "first resurrection" as a future, singular event tied to a millennial kingdom diverges from Catholic teaching and broader biblical context. Revelation 20:4-6 refers symbolically to the spiritual resurrection believers experience through baptism and union with Christ (Romans 6:3-5; Ephesians 2:6). This “first resurrection” is ongoing, not a one-time event. The bodily resurrection, described in John 5:28-29 and 1 Corinthians 15, occurs at the end of time for all humanity, coinciding with the final judgment.
You question why the dead need to be resurrected if they are already with Christ. Catholic teaching affirms that at death, the soul undergoes particular judgment, entering either heaven (possibly through purgatory), hell, or awaiting the resurrection. The bodily resurrection reunites the soul with a glorified body, completing God’s redemptive plan for humanity (Philippians 3:20-21).
Your eschatology borrows heavily from JW-style speculative frameworks, which fail for several reasons. Attempting to create a precise sequence of future events from Revelation, Daniel, and other apocalyptic texts contradicts Jesus’ teaching that “no one knows the day or hour” (Matthew 24:36). Linking figures like the MOL, 8th king, and others into a single, cohesive timeline imposes meaning on the text that is not explicitly present. This approach relies more on human conjecture than scriptural exegesis. Separating Christ’s current reign (Matthew 28:18) from a future, earthly millennial kingdom undermines the New Testament’s teaching that Christ already reigns as King, and His return will bring about the eternal kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 21:1-5).
Your arguments reflect a speculative and overly literal approach to Scripture, particularly apocalyptic texts. Catholic teaching offers a more cohesive and biblically grounded eschatology, emphasizing Christ’s current reign, the spiritual reality of the Church, and the ultimate hope of the new heavens and new earth. While you critique Catholic doctrine as “lockstep,” it is rooted in Scripture, tradition, and the lived experience of the Church across millennia. By contrast, your framework is inconsistent, speculative, and heavily influenced by the problematic interpretive methods of groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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peacefulpete
This exercise has at least demonstrated the futility of debating doctrine with a church that has had 1800 years of eisegesis practice. JWs are amateurs by comparison.
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Duran
Revelation 13’s 42 months is symbolic of a period of intense persecution and opposition to God, not a literal three-and-a-half-year rule of a specific political entity like the "8th king."
How long from Jesus being baptized and starting his ministry to him returning to heaven?
Equating the MOL with the 8th king and other apocalyptic figures (e.g., King of the North, small horn) is speculative and unsupported by Scripture. Paul’s reference to the MOL in 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks to a spiritual rebellion, which Catholic teaching sees as applicable across history, not confined to one individual or regime. Your claim that the MOL sits in God’s temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) being the same as the 8th king in Revelation 17 misreads both texts. The "temple" in Paul’s writing likely refers to the Church or God's spiritual dwelling, not a literal structure tied to a specific political entity.
First off, I never said the MOL sits in a literal structure. I said he is said to sit in God's temple and the 8th king is said to be in God's holy place and that the temple and holy place are the same place.
As far as what the temple and holy place is, it is God's people all around the world.
In regard to the 8th king/MOL/KOTN/DT etc., before I say more, answer these questions first and mull for a bit on those following Scriptures.
When and how do each of the following come to their end:
8th king (Rev 17)
beast and false prophet (Rev 13)
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[15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),][31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]
[ 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]
[12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.][5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.][11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.][6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.][20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
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aqwsed12345
@Duran
I would like to ask you to avoid copying whole Bible chapters in the future, especially from the NWT, I can find it too.
You interpret the 42 months in Revelation (13:5; 11:2; 12:6) as a literal 3.5-year period, tied to a future reign of the "8th king." However, this approach overemphasizes literalism in apocalyptic literature. The 42 months (or 1,260 days, or “time, times, and half a time”) is a recurring motif in apocalyptic literature (Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7; Revelation 11:2; Revelation 12:6). It symbolizes a limited period of tribulation or persecution, not a precise, literal timeframe. This aligns with the apocalyptic genre's use of symbolic numbers to convey theological truths rather than exact durations. For example, the 42 months during which the beast "acts" (Revelation 13:5) parallels the period when the holy city is "trampled" (Revelation 11:2). Both depict the Church's trials during the current age, not a future geopolitical event. The 42 months and related imagery reflect the Church’s experience of tribulation throughout history, particularly under Roman persecution and later challenges. Catholic theology interprets these periods as representative of the Church's ongoing struggle against evil, culminating in Christ’s final victory. This approach avoids speculative futurism.
You equate the MOL in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the 8th king and other apocalyptic figures, claiming they are the same entity. This interpretation is speculative and unsupported by a careful reading of the texts. St. Paul’s description of the MOL emphasizes spiritual rebellion, deception, and opposition to God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). Catholic tradition often interprets this figure as a symbol of ultimate apostasy, which can manifest across history, not just in a single end-time figure. The "temple of God" where the MOL sits (2 Thessalonians 2:4) is not a physical structure but represents the Church or God's spiritual dwelling (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). This reinforces the MOL’s spiritual and ecclesiastical dimension rather than tying him to a specific political ruler. The MOL is distinct from the 8th king in Revelation 17, who symbolizes corrupt worldly powers opposing God throughout history. Equating these figures merges separate apocalyptic motifs without textual evidence. The 8th king reflects recurring cycles of political and spiritual opposition to God, not a singular end-time ruler.
You cite Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 11:31, arguing that the "disgusting thing" references an 8th king desecrating God’s people globally. However, this interpretation is overly rigid and speculative. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus references Daniel’s prophecy about the "abomination of desolation." Historically, this refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes’ desecration of the Jerusalem temple (167 BC). In Jesus' time, it prefigured the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. Catholic theology sees this prophecy as partially fulfilled in AD 70 but also applicable to recurring desecrations of sacred things throughout history, not a singular future event tied to the 8th king. The "holy place" in these texts symbolizes either the physical temple (in historical contexts) or the Church as God’s spiritual dwelling. It does not necessitate a future geopolitical fulfillment.
Your framework merges apocalyptic texts from Daniel, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation into a speculative timeline involving WW3, the 42 months, the 8th king, and Christ’s return. This approach has significant flaws. Scripture does not provide a precise sequence of events leading to Christ’s return. Attempts to construct detailed chronologies often distort the texts and ignore their symbolic nature. Apocalyptic literature uses symbols to convey spiritual truths about God’s ultimate victory over evil, not to outline exact future events. Over-literalizing these symbols leads to confusion and speculative interpretations. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ’s return will coincide with the general resurrection and final judgment (1 Corinthians 15:52; John 5:28-29). There is no intermediate millennial kingdom or extended sequence of geopolitical events between Christ’s return and the fulfillment of God’s plan.
You assert that the GT is a future, singular event tied to the 8th king’s rule. Catholic theology offers a broader perspective. The GT represents the Church’s trials throughout history, beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem and continuing through ongoing persecution and suffering (John 16:33; Revelation 12:17). While there may be an intensification of tribulation before Christ’s return, this does not correspond to a singular geopolitical event. Catholic teaching emphasizes that Christ’s return will bring an end to all tribulation, ushering in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1-4). This event is not preceded by speculative sequences but remains a moment of divine mystery and fulfillment.
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Duran
I would like to ask you to avoid copying whole Bible chapters in the future, especially from the NWT, I can find it too.
LOL! I did not do such. What I cited there was from Matthew, Daniel, Luke, Rev, Thess, and 1 Peter and not whole chapters from them. It was necessary for me to cite them out because it is the bolden parts that I am drawing attention to. Unfortunately, I ran out of edit time to bolden the last two.
Regardless, you could not even do what was asked and that was to first tell me the when and how those 4 come to their end.
And in regard to the Scriptures, I asked you just to mull over them for a bit before I say more, meaning don't reply about them yet, which of course you could not resist doing, only to reply with pure nonsense and lack of understanding.
Shall we try again or are you running scared...
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When and how do each of the following come to their end:
8th king (Rev 17)
beast and false prophet (Rev 13)
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aqwsed12345
@Duran
1. The Man of Lawlessness (MOL, 2 Thessalonians 2:8) is described by Paul as an agent of lawlessness who opposes God and exalts himself in God’s temple. Paul says the Lord Jesus will destroy the MOL “by the breath of his mouth” and bring him to nothing “by the appearance of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:8). The MOL is not limited to a single historical figure or future entity. Rather, it represents a recurring pattern of rebellion and apostasy throughout history. The Church Fathers and theologians often identified it with heretical movements, persecuting governments, or individuals who attempt to usurp God’s authority. The "temple of God" refers to the Church or the community of believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). Thus, the MOL operates within the Church or against it, leading many into error. The end of the MOL is tied to Christ’s second coming, as Paul explicitly states. However, this "destruction" is spiritual, not necessarily tied to a specific regime or individual in history.
So the MOL represents a pattern of rebellion against God rather than a single individual or political entity. As noted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, the MOL is characterized by apostasy and self-exaltation, seeking to replace God within His "temple," which Paul uses metaphorically to describe the Church or God's people (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17). The MOL’s work culminates at Christ's second coming ("the brightness of His coming," 2 Thessalonians 2:8). Christ defeats the MOL through His divine power, not through military or human means. The "breath of His mouth" (2 Thessalonians 2:8) symbolizes the Word of God and His ultimate authority. The MOL has been manifested throughout history in various anti-Christian powers and movements, such as heretical sects, political regimes persecuting the Church, and false messianic claims. It is not limited to a single "8th king" or future figure.
2. The King of the North (KOTN, Daniel 11:45) is Antiochus IV Epiphanes historically, an oppressive ruler against the Jewish people. However, in the broader eschatological view, it prefigures future adversaries of God’s kingdom. The apocalyptic language in Daniel often shifts between historical events and prophetic symbolism. The KOTN’s end is described in apocalyptic terms: "He shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him" (Daniel 11:45). This prefigures the ultimate defeat of all anti-God forces, culminating in Christ's triumph at the end of time. Catholic eschatology does not bind this prophecy to a specific modern political power or a future "8th king" as proposed by speculative interpretations.
So Daniel 11’s "King of the North" initially referred to historical figures, particularly Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Hellenistic ruler who desecrated the Jerusalem Temple (Daniel 11:31). Catholic interpretation, rooted in typology, sees Antiochus as a precursor to the ultimate enemies of God's people in history and eschatology. The KOTN’s "end" occurs as divine judgment intervenes ("he will come to his end, and no one will help him," Daniel 11:45). The apocalyptic imagery signals God's sovereign action. This judgment, historically fulfilled in part, typologically points to Christ's final victory over all anti-Christian powers. The KOTN is not explicitly equated with the 8th king or the MOL. Your attempt to conflate them lacks textual evidence and relies on speculative eschatology, ignoring the historical layers of Daniel’s prophecy.
3. The 8th King (Revelation 17:11-14): Revelation 17:11 describes the 8th king as part of the series of kings symbolizing oppressive world powers. The text says the 8th king "goes to destruction." The beast and its kings represent oppressive regimes or systems throughout history that persecute the Church. The 8th king is not a single future ruler but symbolizes the final manifestation of anti-Christian power, culminating in its defeat by Christ. The text portrays Christ as victorious over the 8th king and his allies (Revelation 17:14). This defeat aligns with Christ’s final judgment and the establishment of God’s eternal kingdom.
So the "8th king" in Revelation 17:11 symbolizes ongoing opposition to God, encapsulating characteristics of the previous seven kings (representing historical kingdoms opposed to God’s people). The 8th king is more a concept of ultimate rebellion rather than a singular, future political leader. The 8th king is judged at the final consummation, which coincides with the defeat of all enemies of Christ (Revelation 17:14; 19:19-21). The Lamb (Christ) conquers the beast and the 8th king through His divine authority and the faithfulness of His saints. Your view imposes a literalistic, futuristic reading onto symbolic apocalyptic texts, conflating distinct visions into a single timeline. Revelation’s imagery transcends specific events, pointing to the Church's struggle throughout history and ultimate vindication.
4. The Beast and False Prophet: Revelation 19:20 describes the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the "lake of fire." The beast represents political and worldly systems opposed to God, while the false prophet symbolizes false religions and ideologies supporting these systems. Their destruction in the "lake of fire" symbolizes the ultimate triumph of Christ over evil. This does not imply a single event but represents the culmination of God’s judgment at the end of history.
So the beast and false prophet symbolize systems and ideologies opposing God. Historically, they have been associated with the Roman Empire's persecution of Christians, but they also typify all anti-Christian forces throughout history. Their judgment occurs in the eschaton, as described in Revelation 19:20. The "fiery lake" symbolizes eternal separation from God, a fate reserved for all who persist in rebellion (Revelation 20:10). Revelation's vivid imagery serves to inspire hope in God’s ultimate victory, not to provide a chronological blueprint of end-times events. The beast and false prophet are judged alongside other symbolic representations of evil, highlighting the totality of God’s triumph.
You conflate the MOL, KOTN, 8th king, and the beasts of Revelation, suggesting they are the same entity or regime. This interpretation is inconsistent with the texts:
- 2 Thessalonians 2 focuses on apostasy and rebellion within the Church, describing the MOL in spiritual terms.
- Daniel 11 reflects historical events (e.g., Antiochus IV) while pointing symbolically to future anti-God forces.
- Revelation 17 and 19 use apocalyptic imagery to depict worldly powers and their ultimate defeat, not specific individuals or regimes.
Your approach assumes a strict literalist reading of apocalyptic texts, which Catholic tradition rejects. Revelation and Daniel employ symbolic language to convey spiritual truths, not detailed timelines or political predictions. Each figure serves a distinct purpose within its respective biblical context. Conflating them ignores the nuances of apocalyptic and prophetic genres. Catholic teaching recognizes historical fulfillments (e.g., Antiochus IV, Roman Empire) as prefiguring ongoing and eschatological struggles. Your interpretation disregards this dual aspect. Apocalyptic literature often employs symbols to convey theological truths rather than provide literal descriptions of future events. Your rigid literalism distorts the texts' meaning. Revelation and Daniel emphasize God’s sovereignty over history, not a detailed timetable of political events. Catholic theology resists speculative end-times scenarios that distract from Christ’s present reign and call to faithfulness.
The "abomination of desolation" (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31) refers historically to the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV. Jesus applies it typologically to future events, such as the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. It symbolizes acts of sacrilege and rebellion against God, recurring throughout history until the final judgment.
The "42 months" (Revelation 13:5) symbolizes a limited period of persecution. It parallels Daniel's "time, times, and half a time" (Daniel 7:25) and is not a literal timeframe. This period represents the trials faced by the Church throughout history, culminating in intensified persecution before Christ’s return.
The GT (Matthew 24:21) is not a singular future event but describes the Church's ongoing trials. It culminates in a final period of suffering but is not limited to the 42 months or tied exclusively to a future 8th king.
Your interpretation relies on speculative connections and a rigid literalism inconsistent with the symbolic nature of apocalyptic texts. Catholic teaching provides a more coherent and historically grounded understanding:
- The MOL, KOTN, 8th king, and beasts symbolize recurring anti-God forces across history.
- The "42 months" and GT represent the Church’s enduring trials, culminating in Christ’s ultimate victory.
- Apocalyptic literature conveys spiritual truths and hope for the faithful, not a detailed political timeline.
Your framework conflates distinct biblical symbols into a singular speculative narrative, distorting their meaning and theological significance. Instead, focus on the consistent message of Scripture: Christ’s triumph over evil and the establishment of God’s eternal kingdom. Rather than fostering speculative fear or obsession with timelines, Catholic eschatology encourages trust in Christ’s victory, participation in His mission, and hope in the new creation.
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Duran
ALL that you said and still no answers. There you go again continuing to try to say what these things are and are not, when you have already done so.
It was you that said:
Equating the MOL with the 8th king and other apocalyptic figures (e.g., King of the North, small horn) is speculative and unsupported by Scripture.
So, now I am responding to show the Scriptural support. But you do not allow for that because instead of just answering and waiting for what I have to say about the Scriptures I cited, you keep responding with the same nonsense you have already said, to which is what I was already in the process of responding to.
If you think you answered what I asked, then can you copy and paste just the precise part in your reply that says when and how do each come to their end.
[MOL - 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.]
[KOTN - 45 And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him.]
[ Rev 17 8th king- 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”]
[Rev 13 beast - 19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]
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Also, you never answered this:
How long from Jesus being baptized and starting his ministry to him returning to heaven?
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aqwsed12345
@Duran
1. When and how do each of the figures come to their end?
The MOL represents a broader concept of anti-Christian rebellion rather than a single individual or political entity. When? The MOL meets its end at the Second Coming of Christ, as explicitly stated in the verse. How? The destruction of the MOL occurs through Christ's divine authority ("the spirit of His mouth") and the glory of His return. Your attempt to link the MOL to specific figures (e.g., the "8th king") lacks evidence. Paul’s description refers to pervasive apostasy rather than one temporal ruler.
The KOTN is historically identified with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a tyrant who persecuted the Jews and desecrated the Temple. When? Historically fulfilled in Antiochus’ sudden death, this passage typologically prefigures future opponents of God's kingdom. How? His end came by divine intervention, without human assistance. Your conflation of the KOTN with later apocalyptic figures (e.g., the 8th king) ignores the immediate historical context of Daniel’s prophecy.
The "8th king" represents a culmination of anti-God powers throughout history, rooted in the historical persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire. When? Its end coincides with Christ’s final triumph ("The Lamb will conquer them," Rev. 17:14). How? The beast's destruction occurs at Christ's Second Coming, emphasizing God's sovereign victory over evil. Your interpretation overly literalizes symbolic imagery. The "beast" represents a principle of opposition to God, not merely a specific future ruler.
The beast and false prophet symbolize systemic opposition to God, manifested historically in oppressive regimes and false religions. When? Their defeat occurs in the eschaton, at Christ’s return to establish His eternal reign. How? The "fiery lake" represents eternal judgment upon those who persist in rebellion against God. This passage is not a predictive timeline but a theological affirmation of Christ’s ultimate victory.
2. How long was Jesus’ ministry from baptism to ascension?
Jesus’ public ministry lasted approximately three years, from His baptism by John the Baptist to His Ascension. This period is widely accepted based on the chronology of the Gospels, particularly John's account of three Passover celebrations during Jesus' ministry (John 2:13; 6:4; 11:55). Your question implies a connection between this timeline and the "42 months" in Revelation. However, the 42 months is symbolic, reflecting periods of trial and tribulation (drawing from Daniel 7:25; 12:7). It is not tied to Jesus’ ministry duration.
3. Rebuttal of Your Arguments
MOL and 8th King: You equate the MOL with the 8th king, beast, and other figures, yet these represent distinct aspects of rebellion against God. The MOL is described in moral and religious terms (apostasy and deception within the Church), not as a political entity. The 8th king and beast, on the other hand, symbolize broader worldly systems opposing Christ. The "temple" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 refers to the spiritual dwelling of God (the Church), not a physical holy place as in Revelation.
42 Months: Revelation's 42 months are symbolic, signifying a limited period of persecution (three-and-a-half years = half of seven, the number of completeness). It draws from Daniel’s apocalyptic imagery and represents periods of trial faced by God’s people, not a literal timeline for a specific ruler.
Great Tribulation (GT): The GT is not a singular, future event but encompasses the Church's ongoing struggle against evil throughout history. Your fixation on a future 42-month period under a literal "8th king" contradicts the broader scriptural witness of Christ's reign extending from His Ascension (1 Corinthians 15:25).
Eschatological Timing: Christ Himself said, "No one knows the day or hour" (Matthew 24:36). Catholic teaching rejects speculative timelines or attempts to predict specific apocalyptic sequences, focusing instead on readiness for Christ’s return.
Your arguments rely on conflating distinct biblical figures and misinterpreting symbolic apocalyptic imagery. Catholic teaching, rooted in Scripture and Tradition, provides a more coherent and historically grounded understanding of these texts. Rather than fixating on speculative timelines, the Church emphasizes Christ’s victory, the call to faithfulness, and the ultimate restoration of creation in God's eternal kingdom.
I quote one of the Protesant biblical commentaries I use on the interpretation of the Book of Revelation:
"The Book of Revelation has been interpreted in various ways throughout the history of biblical exegesis. In antiquity and the Middle Ages, the so-called ecclesiastical-historical and world-historical interpretation was generally preferred. This method of interpretation assumed that the Book of Revelation foretold events in church and world history. Many attempted to identify the apocalyptic images and figures in Revelation with specific historical events and individuals. (Nowadays, only sects proclaiming apocalyptic doctrines engage in such interpretations of Revelation.) This method discredited itself because it had to repeatedly adjust its conclusions over time as historical events failed to align with the 'schedule' that interpreters believed they had discovered in the Book of Revelation. The failure of such attempts was one reason why the Protestant churches, until relatively recently, approached the book with reservations and largely neglected its interpretation. As a result, the Book of Revelation was handed over to pious fantasy. At one point, it even seemed as though Revelation would become the free prey of sects advocating apocalyptic doctrines.
Today, the situation has changed significantly. A large number of scholarly interpretations deal with the Book of Revelation, exploring its meaning and message within the context of biblical revelation. When discussing its genre, we saw that Revelation is a contemporary New Testament prophecy and an eschatological message presented in apocalyptic form. Exegesis must find a way to distinguish between the message of Revelation addressed to its own time, i.e., its first readers, and its eschatological teachings concerning the end times. At the same time, we must explore how both aspects of Revelation’s genre convey timely messages, comfort, encouragement, admonition, and calls to responsibility for today's Church and our generation.
The interpretation of the Book of Revelation cannot be resolved with one-sided methods. The unique character of the book resists all schematization. The appropriate interpretative approach can only be found by taking the scientifically established genre and characteristics of the book seriously, adapting to them, and scientifically uncovering its symbolic system and the message behind it.
Since Revelation is above all a New Testament prophecy—and prophecy is never abstract and timeless but always an address to its contemporaries—we must employ the historical-critical method to determine who the book's first readers were and the historical situation in which the prophecy was delivered.
Since Revelation also contains teachings about the end times, we must apply the eschatological interpretative approach, utilizing our eschatological knowledge derived from the entire history of biblical revelation to understand the book’s eschatological message.
It is also crucial to recognize that the message and content of Revelation are clothed in the imagery and forms of apocalyptic literature. Therefore, the use of the tradition-historical and history-of-religions methods is necessary to determine the origins and meanings of its apocalyptic imagery. This is essential to distinguish between the old and new content of the imagery.
While applying these exegetical methods, we must never forget that these methods cannot become infallible principles or mechanical keys to solve every mystery. These interpretative approaches are merely tools—so-called heuristic perspectives—that 'sound' biblical scholarship employs not arbitrarily but in accordance with the nature of Scripture (cf. 1 Timothy 1:10; Titus 1:9). Theology grounded in Reformation-evangelical principles has no other way to determine the content, teaching, and message of the Book of Revelation than this comprehensive scientific method based on the devoted work of generations.
Those who expect the Book of Revelation to satisfy their sensationalism, pious curiosity, or mystical inclinations to escape the world will be disappointed by both the book and its evangelical scholarly interpretation. The Book of Revelation and its evangelical interpretation serve to edify those who, like with the other books of Scripture, seek comfort, guidance, Christ’s timely commands, and calls to follow Him."One of the greatest critiques of this approach is that it misunderstands the original intention of the Apostle John when writing the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, whose purpose was not to serve as a kind of 'historical map,' but to provide encouragement and comfort to believers, especially during times of suffering and persecution. The effort to interpret the book as a prediction of all human history distracts from its spiritual and moral message.
Instead of treating the Book of Revelation as a forward-looking prophecy that covers the entire arc of human history, it would be more important to consider its symbolic meanings and spiritual teachings. The text is meant to encourage and strengthen God's people in their daily trials, not to predict specific historical events. In interpreting the Book of Revelation, we should focus much more on its spiritual and theological messages than on forced connections to specific historical events. The goal of apocalyptic literature is not to predict historical events but to strengthen the faith and perseverance of its readers, no matter the era in which they live.
Another theology book of mine says:
Prophetic foretelling is definitive. It is not ambiguous or open to manipulation, as were the prophecies of the pagans, notorious for their ambiguity; nor is it uncertain, like reckless predictions that rely on chance fulfillment. However, the definitiveness of prophecy does not mean it is prewritten history or that the prophet is a historian drawing from the future. A prophet is sent by God primarily to proclaim and testify how God’s great principles inevitably prevail, both in the past and in the future. Therefore, prophecy is usually detailed enough to capture the attention of those of good will and prompt serious reflection, yet sufficiently veiled so that this reflection and the resulting decision can occur with complete individual freedom and responsibility. This is why prophecy often appears clothed in symbols, metaphors, allegories, and parables. Since the prophet stands on God’s perspective, teaching others to view events from this divine standpoint, the eternal God focuses on the interconnectedness of things and events (the relationship between merit and responsibility, intentions and outcomes) and the fulfillment of His divine purposes, rather than on the passage of time (since for Him, a thousand years are as one day). For this reason, the prophet often compacts vast epochs into a single image or vision (synopsis prophetica, prophetic compression). [...]
Prophecy in general, and messianic prophecy in particular, is not merely prewritten history; it is always the energetic articulation of the great divine thoughts and principles that guide and interpret history. This is done in a way that leaves room for the free decisions of the persons involved in the prophecy, as well as for the free faith of those called to believe who have been awakened by the prophecy’s exhortations. [...]
Despite appearances to the contrary, chiliasm (millenarianism) has no roots in Scripture. It fundamentally misunderstands that prophecy reveals the supernatural interconnections of salvation history, follows divine pragmatism, and does not aim to be prewritten history. Anyone who interprets the apocalyptic and prophetic descriptions of the future as literal narratives, rather than seeing them as symbols of God’s abundant grace and power, acts contrary to the spirit of Scripture.I recall that when I purchased my first Bible, I enthusiastically searched for a 'hidden key' or 'secret message,' and for a few weeks, I was convinced I would make some great discovery that no one had ever realized before. In my defense, I was a young teenager, and such thinking is understandable at that age. The real problem is with adults—even those with decades of Bible-reading experience—who still approach Scripture in the same way, thinking, 'I’ll dig up something no one has ever thought of.'
In my experience, when, for example, a Jehovah's Witness looks into what Catholics believe about interpreting the Book of Revelation, they expect something similar to their own approach: that a specific verse means Russell here, another verse refers to a JW convention there, and instead of 1914 or 1919, they anticipate seeing other specific dates. By contrast, Catholic commentaries often present what they find disappointingly dull interpretations, devoid of the concrete event identification or dates they are accustomed to.
You misunderstand the characteristics and purposes of apocalyptic literature if you approach the Book of Revelation as if it can only be encouraging when it serves as a 'historical map.' Apocalyptic literature, including Revelation, is not a literal historical account or a 'map' of the future. This genre uses symbolic and metaphorical language to convey deeper spiritual truths that transcend the specific events of any given time period. The purpose of apocalyptic texts is not to establish a linear timeline but to provide encouragement and hope to believers amidst trials and persecutions.
Encouragement does not require the text to predict the future precisely or serve as a 'map.' The symbolic language conveys deeper spiritual truths that provide believers with hope and perseverance in their faith, regardless of how closely future events align with these images. For instance, the symbolism in Revelation, such as the 'Lamb' or the 'New Jerusalem,' does not point to specific chronological events but rather to the ultimate victory brought by Christ.
The Book of Revelation was not written to establish a precise chronological order of events but to reveal God’s ultimate plan and the purpose of human history. In this context, 'objective truth' does not mean that every detail must be taken literally but that the text illuminates God’s plan and the path of salvation for believers.
The teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, which apply a literal interpretation to certain prophecies, differ from the Catholic Church’s approach to apocalyptic texts. The Catholic Church does not see a literal interpretation of Revelation as necessary to provide encouragement to believers. Instead, it views the book as a source of spiritual truths that transcend the specifics of time and place and apply to the Church universally across all ages.
1 Corinthians 1:20-21 reminds us that God’s message often does not align with the wisdom of the world but operates contrary to it. Apocalyptic literature embodies this 'foolishness,' not by offering a literal 'map' of the future but by providing profound spiritual truths that give believers strength and perseverance. The Book of Revelation offered encouragement to early Christians and continues to inspire all believers seeking faith and hope amidst persecution or difficulty.
The Book of Revelation is not a 'map' but an apocalyptic text that uses symbolic language to convey spiritual truths. Encouragement does not arise from literal interpretation but from the deeper understanding that God’s ultimate victory is assured, and believers always have hope in Christ. 'Objective truth,' therefore, lies not in the chronological sequence of events but in understanding God’s eternal plan and believing that believers will share in this plan, no matter what happens in history.
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Duran
First to everything you said/say and how you respond...
3. Rebuttal of Your Arguments
I don't know how you can rebut me at this point because I haven't made my arguments. I have only made claims of who I say entities are and cited Scriptures that I will use to support my claims. Your response never allows to move forward. But at this point I will not be bothering to make such arguments to you as you are too foolish to keep responding to. Proverbs 26:4
That's All I Have To Say About That- Forrest Gump Quote
And as far as times being symbolic or literal and Jesus' ministry you have no clue, nor do you know what I was going to say about it.
[6 While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.]
[ 29 Suddenly they shouted, “What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”]
[21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.]
[3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.]
[ 19 He said, “Listen, and I will tell you what will take place later in the period of wrath, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.]
[17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?]
[7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come; and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the fountains of water.”]
[12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom yet, but they will receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast.]
[ 6 One said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the water of the river, “How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was over the water of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time. [a] And when they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.]
[3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will wage war against them and overcome them and kill them.]
[ 5 A mouth was given to him speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 7 It was also given to him to make war with the [d]saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation.]
[33 “The wise among the people shall instruct many. Yet for many days they shall fall by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by destruction.]
[12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.]