Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Acts 16:6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.

    Phil 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

    Here are 2 examples of the primary emanations of God used interchangeably. Holy Spirit is perceived essentially the same as the Christ in certain roles. Similarly, Jesus would 'always be with them' and he would 'send another, the Holy Spirit'.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    At the moment of death, each person undergoes the particular judgment. This judgment is an immediate, individual assessment of the soul’s relationship with God. Based on this judgment:

    • Those in a state of perfect grace and friendship with God enter heaven immediately, enjoying the beatific vision (the direct, joyful communion with God).
    • Those who die in God’s grace but still need purification enter purgatory, where they are cleansed of residual sin and made ready for heaven.
    • Those who have definitively rejected God through mortal sin without repentance face eternal separation from God in hell.

    A nonbeliever also undergoes particular judgment immediately upon death. If they are found to have rejected God, their soul would face hell as a final separation. However, the Catholic Church also acknowledges that God’s mercy and justice are beyond human understanding. For those who, through no fault of their own, did not know Christ or the gospel but sought truth and goodness, there is hope that God may grant them salvation.

    A living believer is awaiting the Second Coming of Christ, as well as the Final Judgment. Catholics believe that, in God’s time, Christ will return to fully establish His kingdom, bringing history to its fulfillment. At that time, the dead will be resurrected, and all will face the final judgment.

    Catholics believe that Christ could return at any time, emphasizing the importance of being spiritually prepared. While certain signs are described in the New Testament, these are interpreted as reminders to remain vigilant and faithful, rather than as precise predictions of timing. Catholics believe we are to live in expectation, trusting in God’s timing while focusing on living out the gospel faithfully.

    Catholic doctrine affirms the resurrection of the body at the end of time. At Christ’s second coming, all the dead—both righteous and unrighteous—will be raised bodily. This belief is rooted in Christ’s own resurrection and reflects the Christian understanding that human beings are a unity of body and soul. The body will be transformed and glorified, free from corruption, to share in the eternal life promised by Christ. For Catholics, the resurrection affirms that salvation encompasses the whole person and not just the soul.

    Following the resurrection, will be the general judgment, where Christ will come in glory to judge all people, living and dead. This event will reveal the full scope of God’s plan, demonstrating His justice and mercy to all creation. While the particular judgment determines each person’s eternal destiny, the general judgment will reveal the ripple effects of every action across history, showing how each individual contributed to the good or the harm in God’s creation. In the final judgment, all will witness the fulfillment of justice and mercy, as well as the victory of good over evil.

    Catholic eschatology looks forward to the new heaven and new earth described in Revelation, where God will dwell with humanity in a perfected, renewed creation. The ultimate destiny is not a spiritualized, disembodied existence but rather the union of heaven and earth, where all creation is reconciled and made whole in God. This vision fulfills the Lord’s Prayer: "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." In this restored creation, heaven and earth will be united, and God's presence will permeate everything, making it a place of peace, justice, and communion with Him forever.

    The Catholic Church has traditionally rejected speculative predictions about the timing or specifics of the end times. Jesus himself warned against attempts to predict the day or hour of His return, stating that "no one knows" this timing except the Father (Matthew 24:36). Catholics are encouraged to live in readiness for Christ’s return by remaining faithful and growing in holiness rather than focusing on apocalyptic timelines or speculating about the sequence of events. This approach keeps the focus on the present call to follow Christ, trust in God’s plan, and leave the timing of future events to His wisdom.

    In summary, Catholic eschatology centers on the certainty of God’s ultimate victory and the hope of eternal life with Him. Believers are called to prepare for their own particular judgment, await the resurrection, anticipate the general judgment, and live with hope in the new heaven and new earth, where God will be "all in all." This perspective emphasizes trust in God’s plan without needing to engage in speculative interpretations, focusing instead on the mission of living a holy life in anticipation of the fullness of God’s Kingdom.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Those in a state of perfect grace and friendship with God enter heaven immediately,

    Can you cite ANY Scriptures to support that there are already persons in heaven now that were humans here on earth?

    A living believer is awaiting the Second Coming of Christ

    Is there ANYTHING that has to happen prophecy wise before Jesus is said to come?

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : Therefore, while the Greek word ektise can mean “create,” the underlying Hebrew context allows for a broader range of meanings, including “possess.”

    The Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek so they would be available to Jews who could not understand Hebrew, which by this time was only a liturgical language. Greek was the language used by the NT writers and it is clear from the scriptures I listed that they understood and used ektisen and ktiseos as created and creation respectively.

    I suggest that just as John, as a believing Jew, could not write "in the beginning" (John 1:1) without having Genesis 1:1 in mind, so the writer of Revelation could not write "the beginning of the creation by God" without having Proverbs 8:22 in mind. This is no "surface-level similarity". The people of that age memorised huge chunks of scripture as the written word was not as available as it is today. Their audience would always include Jews and so they would allude to OT passages, especially in connection with Christ, to show there was a continuity of faith.

    When a Jew read John 1:1 they would immediately think of Genesis 1:1. When they read Revelation 3:14 they would immediately think of Proverbs 8:22. It doesn't matter how Athanasius and the post-Nicene fathers interpreted it. What matters is how the writer of Revelation and his immediate audience understood it, and the evidence is quite clear about that.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran
    Response to the First Question: Is There Biblical Evidence of Humans Already in Heaven?

    Yes, there is scriptural support in the New Testament indicating that human souls are in heaven. Here are some key examples:

    1. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a "great cloud of witnesses," referring to the faithful who have died, as described in Hebrews 11. This passage suggests that these faithful departed are alive in heaven and aware of God’s activity on earth.
    2. Luke 23:43 records Jesus’ words to the repentant thief on the cross: “Today you will be with me in paradise.” This statement implies an immediate transition to paradise, understood in the Catholic tradition as heaven or its antechamber, after death for the repentant thief.
    3. 2 Corinthians 5:8: Paul expresses confidence that to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord.” This passage indicates that upon death, those in Christ are immediately in God's presence, understood by early Christians as heaven.
    4. Revelation 6:9-11 describes the souls of martyrs under the heavenly altar, asking God how long until justice is done on earth. This scene reveals that the martyrs are in God’s presence, conscious and interceding, which supports the understanding of the faithful residing in heaven.
    5. Matthew 17:1-3 describes the Transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah, long dead, appear alongside Christ in a state of glory. This event is taken as a demonstration of the righteous entering into the presence of God after death.

    In Catholic understanding, these passages affirm that those who have died in God’s grace are with Him in heaven and are part of the “Church Triumphant,” praying for and encouraging the faithful on earth.


    Response to the Second Question: Are There Prophecies Left to be Fulfilled Before Christ’s Return?

    Catholic teaching recognizes certain signs that are expected to precede the final coming of Christ, though the exact sequence and timing remain a mystery. Some signs include:

    1. The Gospel Preached to All Nations: Matthew 24:14 states, "This gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." The universal proclamation of the Gospel is understood as a sign, though it remains ambiguous how fully this must be accomplished.
    2. A Great Tribulation and the Appearance of the Antichrist: Matthew 24:21-24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 speak of a period of tribulation and the revealing of a man of sin, often understood as the Antichrist, who will deceive many. Catholic tradition holds that this period precedes Christ’s final victory.
    3. The Conversion of Israel: Romans 11:25-26 suggests that “all Israel will be saved” before the end. This is interpreted as a widespread conversion of the Jewish people, acknowledging Christ as the Messiah.
    4. Cosmic Signs: Apocalyptic passages, such as those in Matthew 24:29-31, mention celestial disturbances (sun darkened, moon not giving light, etc.), and Luke 21:25-26 speaks of signs in the sun, moon, and stars.

    While these signs are part of Catholic eschatology, the Church cautions against exact end-time speculation, emphasizing that Christ’s return will come “like a thief in the night” (1 Thessalonians 5:2), and that believers should remain always ready, without trying to pinpoint specific dates or events. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1040) reminds us that God has not revealed the specific day or hour, encouraging Catholics to focus on faithfulness and preparedness over speculation. Thomas Aquinas writes

    "When Christ shall come to judge He will appear in the form of glory, on account of the authority becoming a judge. Now it pertains to the dignity of judicial power to have certain signs that induce people to reverence and subjection: and consequently many signs will precede the advent of Christ when He shall come to judgment, in order that the hearts of men be brought to subjection to the coming judge, and be prepared for the judgment, being forewarned by those signs. But it is not easy to know what these signs may be: for the signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world (Ep. lxxx), refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race: unless perhaps we say that at that time they will be more prevalent: although it is uncertain in what degree this increase will foretell the imminence of the advent. [...]
    According to Augustine (Ad Hesych., Ep. lxxx) towards the end of the world there will be a general persecution of the good by the wicked: so that at the same time some will fear, namely the good, and some will be secure, namely the wicked. The words: "When they shall say: Peace and security," refer to the wicked, who will pay little heed to the signs of the coming judgment: while the words of Luke 21:26, "men withering away," etc., should be referred to the good.
    We may also reply that all these signs that will happen about the time of the judgment are reckoned to occur within the time occupied by the judgment, so that the judgment day contains them all. Wherefore although men be terrified by the signs appearing about the judgment day, yet before those signs begin to appear the wicked will think themselves to be in peace and security, after the death of Antichrist and before the coming of Christ, seeing that the world is not at once destroyed, as they thought hitherto. [...]
    The day of the Lord is said to come as a thief, because the exact time is not known, since it will not be possible to know it from those signs: although, as we have already said, all these most manifest sings which will precede the judgment immediately may be comprised under the judgment day."
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    While it’s true that the Septuagint aimed to make Hebrew scriptures accessible to Greek-speaking Jews, this does not mean the translators always captured the full range of meanings present in the Hebrew text. The translation process inevitably involves interpretation, especially when a word like qanah has multiple possible meanings (e.g., “possess,” “acquire,” “create”). The fact that ektise was chosen doesn’t eliminate the semantic flexibility of the original Hebrew term. Many scholars agree that qanah in Proverbs 8:22 can mean “possess” or “acquire,” and that it doesn’t necessarily imply a temporal creation, especially in poetic or wisdom literature.

    Furthermore, the writers of the New Testament, while influenced by the LXX, often use language with deep theological nuance that requires careful interpretation. The word ektise may carry the meaning of "create" in most contexts, but it doesn’t demand a literal creation in every instance, especially when interpreting metaphorical or poetic texts.

    While it’s reasonable to consider that Revelation 3:14 could echo Proverbs 8:22, it’s crucial to recognize that allusions are not always literal repetitions of meaning. Revelation often uses Old Testament imagery in symbolic ways. Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, a poetic figure representing God’s wisdom in creation, not an actual created being. Wisdom’s "beginning" here refers to God’s eternal, originating wisdom rather than a specific moment of creation. The same metaphorical concept could apply to Christ as the "beginning" or "source" of creation in Revelation, aligning with the understanding of archē as “origin.”

    In other words, the connection to Proverbs 8:22 doesn’t require a literal interpretation that places Christ within the created order. Instead, it points to His unique, preeminent role in creation—He is the “beginning” in the sense that all things were made through Him, as stated in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.

    Your argument assumes that the earliest readers of Revelation would have automatically associated ektise with a literal creation and understood Proverbs 8:22 similarly. However, early Christian interpretation was not monolithic. The early Jewish and Christian understanding of archē in relation to Christ evolved to emphasize His preeminence and divine agency in creation, not His creation as a creature. This is evident in the writings of early theologians who, even before Nicaea, interpreted Proverbs 8 and Revelation 3:14 in ways that affirmed Christ’s divine status.

    While the New Testament writers often allude to the Old Testament, these allusions don’t dictate a single, literal interpretation. Instead, they often serve to deepen theological concepts. For example, John’s allusion to Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 isn’t merely about temporal beginnings but about the Logos’s role in the eternal nature of God, highlighting continuity without implying literal replication.

    It’s not accurate to dismiss how early Church Fathers like Athanasius and others understood these texts. The post-Nicene Fathers, as well as pre-Nicene ones, were much closer to the language, culture, and interpretive traditions of the New Testament writers than we are today. Their interpretations reflect how these passages were understood within the early Christian community, particularly in the face of heresies that misinterpreted texts like Proverbs 8:22 to diminish Christ’s divinity.

    This historical context is invaluable because the early Fathers defended the eternal, divine nature of Christ against Arian interpretations that sought to make Him a created being. Their consistent interpretation of “beginning” and “firstborn” as referring to Christ’s preeminence, not literal creation, shows that the prevailing understanding in early Christianity upheld Christ’s co-eternity with the Father.

    In conclusion, while ektise can mean “create,” its application in Proverbs 8:22 and Revelation 3:14 should not be isolated from the broader theological context. The New Testament writers, while referencing Old Testament language, often employed it to express deeper, theological truths about Christ’s unique role and nature. The early Christian interpretive tradition confirms that “beginning” in Revelation 3:14 is best understood as Christ’s preeminence or role as the source of creation, not as a claim that He is a created being.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    The regular interpretation of John 1.1 is where it takes “In the beginning was the Word”, along the lines: “the Word already existed at the time of the creation of the heavens and the earth”, and this is how JWs currently read the verse.

    But I have read there is an alternative way of understanding the phrase so that it is identifying the Word as the beginning. A bit like saying “in the beginning there was light”, or “in the beginning light appeared”, to indicate that the Word emerged at the beginning. If I recall correctly, this is how some ancient interpreters read the verse, and JWs have at times in the past read it that way too, in which case John 1.1 would be further testimony to Jesus as God’s first creation.

    But I can’t remember where I read it. Has anyone else come across this argument?
  • Duran
    Duran
    Yes, there is scriptural support in the New Testament indicating that human souls are in heaven.

    If you believe that those Scriptures indicate that there are indeed humans that have died but are now currently in heaven, answer me this:

    [ 39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

    Who are those/them referring to? Why are they in need to be resurrected, why didn't they go to heaven immediately upon their death? When is the last day?

    [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 This is the first resurrection.]

    There it states that those that had been executed are resurrected along with those that were killed/died refusing the beast.

    The beast/8th king has not begun ruling yet, so the MOTB, etc. is still future. At this point none of those could have even been killed/died refusing the beast/8th king in need to be resurrected. So, the first resurrection as not occurred yet which means those executed have not been resurrected yet.

    The question is, why do any of them need to be resurrected, why don't they go straight to heaven?

    And since this 'first resurrection' has not occurred yet, doesn't that mean the 'last day' has not come yet?

    [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first]

    That shows that the dead in union with Jesus will be resurrected at his second coming. Why do they have to be resurrected then, why aren't they already in heaven when they died?

    And doesn't this mean that Jesus' 'second coming' is the 'last day'/'first resurrection'?

    Catholic teaching recognizes certain signs that are expected to precede the final coming of Christ, though the exact sequence and timing remain a mystery.

    What is the mystery, doesn't it clearly state that Jesus will come AFTER the GT/8th king 42-month rule?

    [ 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

    [ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

    [31 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.]

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    "The heavens and the earth" is a Hebrew merism, meaning the whole created world, everything that was made. The Greek phrase ἐν ἀρχῇ (en archē, "In the beginning") parallels the opening of Genesis 1:1, where it signifies the absolute beginning of all things, not the emergence of a created being. John uses ἦν (ēn, "was") in “In the beginning was the Word,” which indicates continuous existence rather than a beginning point. This verb choice emphasizes that the Word already existed in the beginning rather than coming into existence at that point.

    The phrase "In the beginning" (Ἐν ἀρχῇ) in John 1:1 uses the Greek preposition "ἐν" (en) with the dative noun "ἀρχῇ" (archē), typically meaning "in the beginning" rather than "as the beginning" or "beginning of creation." The Greek here echoes the opening of Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God created..."), situating the Logos ("the Word") as preexistent and active at the dawn of creation itself. This usage does not imply that the Word came into existence at that point; rather, it indicates the Word already existed when creation began, emphasizing the Logos's eternal presence.

    This phrase does not imply that "the Word" was 'created' "in the beginning" as if it were the first act of creation. Instead, it conveys that the Word existed in the beginning, implying an eternal, timeless existence. The early Church Fathers and ancient interpreters universally read John 1:1 as affirming the preexistence and divinity of the Word, viewing the Word as uncreated and co-eternal with the Father.

    John 1:3 continues by saying, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” If the Word was himself a created being, John’s logic would become incoherent because it would suggest that the Word was self-created. Instead, the passage indicates that the Word is the source of all creation, placing him outside the category of “created” things and affirming his role as the eternal Creator.

    So if the Word were the "beginning" in the sense of a first creation, it would contradict this passage, which explicitly states that everything created was made through the Word. Thus, if the Word had been a creation, it would mean the Word created itself, which is logically and theologically incoherent.

    Other New Testament passages align with this interpretation. Colossians 1:16-17 asserts that all things were created through Christ and that he is before all things,” which points to his existence beyond time and creation. Hebrews 1:2-3 also emphasizes that the Son sustains all things, further supporting the understanding of the Word as eternal and uncreated.

    The early Christian understanding consistently interpreted John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s eternal existence and deity. While some later sects suggested that Christ was a created being, this view was rejected as inconsistent with the apostolic teaching and the clear message of John’s Gospel. The early Church Fathers—such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Athanasius—interpreted John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s divinity and eternal existence with God. They did not consider the Word a created being or the "first creation." Instead, they viewed the Logos as eternally existing with God, of the same divine essence. The idea of the Logos as the first created being was not part of mainstream Christian teaching and was later rejected by the Nicene Creed, which clarified that the Son was "begotten, not made," emphasizing eternal generation rather than creation.

    The earlier interpretations of the JWs may have explored the idea of the Logos as the first creation. However, this interpretation faces theological challenges: it introduces a duality within God that would disrupt strict monotheism by making the Word a secondary, divine figure rather than sharing fully in the essence of God. The traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity, by contrast, holds that the Word is fully God and shares in the divine essence, avoiding any hierarchical subordination or polytheistic/henotheistic implications.

    The traditional interpretation of John 1:1 as affirming the Word’s eternal existence with God is rooted in both the text itself and the early Church’s understanding. Reinterpreting it as suggesting the Word was created “at the beginning” is unsupported by the Greek grammar, context, and historical understanding of the verse.

    @Duran

    You asked why believers who die in a state of grace aren’t simply resurrected immediately, instead of going to heaven. Catholic teaching acknowledges that there are two distinct events: the particular judgment (occurring at death) and the general resurrection (occurring at the end of time).

    John 6:39 speaks of the “last day” resurrection, and this refers to the bodily resurrection. The resurrection of the body, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is indeed reserved for Christ’s return, but the souls of the righteous, already in friendship with God, can enter heaven immediately after death. This aligns with Hebrews 12:23, where the “spirits of the righteous made perfect” are in the presence of God, showing that the souls of the just are with God prior to the bodily resurrection. The “last day” resurrection does not negate the reality that souls of the righteous may enter heaven immediately after death. Catholic teaching differentiates between the immediate state of the soul after death and the final resurrection of the body.

    According to Philippians 1:23, Paul expresses a desire “to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” This implies that upon death, Paul expected to be immediately with Christ, which supports the belief that a soul can be in heaven even before the final bodily resurrection.

    The necessity of the resurrection on the “last day” is rooted in the Catholic belief in the resurrection of the body, not the soul. While souls of the righteous can be in heaven, they await reunion with their glorified bodies, fulfilling the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and the complete person’s restoration. The “last day” resurrection involves the reuniting of the soul with a glorified body. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that, while souls of the righteous enter heaven, their resurrection in bodily form occurs at the final resurrection (CCC 1022, 1038).

    In Revelation 20:4-5, the “first resurrection” can be understood in two primary ways:

    1. Spiritual Resurrection: Catholic theology interprets the “first resurrection” as spiritual—where believers are raised to new life in Christ through faith and baptism. This aligns with John 5:24-25, where those who believe “have passed from death to life.” The “first resurrection” here is spiritual, marking the transition from death to life in Christ. It’s not necessarily the bodily resurrection, which is reserved for the “last day.”
    2. Martyrs’ Reward: Revelation 20 describes the souls of those who were martyred for their faith ruling with Christ, symbolizing the honor given to those who suffer for Him. The language about reigning with Christ is often viewed symbolically, referring to those who have died in faith being in the presence of God, not yet the general resurrection of all believers.

    So the mention of the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:4-5 is traditionally interpreted as a symbol of the righteous’ participation in the reign of Christ. Early Church Fathers, like Augustine, saw this “first resurrection” not as a literal bodily resurrection but as the reign of the saints with Christ in heaven before the final resurrection.

    The reference to those “executed” refers to martyrs and saints who are alive in spirit with Christ, as indicated in Revelation 6:9-11, where the souls of the martyrs are seen under the altar in heaven. This implies that souls of martyrs are alive with Christ before the final bodily resurrection.

    The passage from 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the “last day” or general resurrection, when all the faithful are united with their glorified bodies. The “second coming” and the “last day” are indeed the culmination of history, where all who have died in Christ will rise bodily. But this does not negate the immediate entrance of righteous souls into God’s presence after death, as shown in passages such as Luke 23:43, where Jesus promises the thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus’ teaching on the afterlife does not indicate that righteous souls must “sleep” until the resurrection.

    So 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 describes the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming. Catholic teaching holds that this passage refers to the bodily resurrection of those who are already spiritually alive in Christ. Their souls may already be in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:23), but they will be bodily resurrected at His coming.

    Jesus’ “second coming” involves the “last day,” which includes the final judgment and resurrection of the body for both the righteous and the unrighteous (cf. John 5:28-29).

    Regarding your question on the “mystery” of Christ’s return, the Catholic Church maintains that while some signs are given, the timing remains unknown (Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7). Catholic theology teaches that certain signs—such as widespread evangelization, the appearance of the Antichrist, and cosmic disturbances—are indeed precursors to Christ’s return (see CCC 673-677). However, the exact timing and sequence of these signs are not fully revealed, which is why it remains a mystery. While certain events might occur, their precise fulfillment or timing can’t be pinpointed, as Matthew 24:36 emphasizes that “no one knows the day or hour.”

    In Catholic understanding, these signs (wars, tribulation, and cosmic events) indicate the transition into the last things, leading to the final judgment and the new heavens and new earth (CCC 1042-1050). This new creation will come about only at the very end, after the final judgment, marking the full consummation of God’s kingdom.

    So the Catholic theology affirms both the immediate presence of souls with God after death for those in grace and the future, bodily resurrection on the last day. While Revelation speaks symbolically about reigning and resurrection, it does not contradict the teaching that souls in grace enter God’s presence immediately. Lastly, the signs given by Jesus and throughout the Bible are real but are not intended to specify an exact timetable, allowing believers to live in readiness rather than speculation.

    In summary, Catholic doctrine, grounded in Scripture and tradition, upholds that souls of the righteous enter heaven immediately upon death if they are in a state of perfect grace, while awaiting the bodily resurrection on the “last day.” The passages you've cited do not contradict this belief but rather align with the Church’s understanding of the resurrection and the end times.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    aqwsed I know that you don’t think Jesus is God’s first creation. My question was whether anyone knows which ancient or modern scholars have taken “beginning” as a description of the origin of the Word in John 1.1 in a way that indicates Jesus is God’s first creation. I am sure I read it somewhere but I can’t remember where.

    On the point that “heaven and earth” is a miasm indicating totality, indeed, and that totality, in context is the whole of physical creation. Genesis 1 is an account of the physical creation, it doesn’t discuss or deal with the creation of the heavenly realm, angels, cherubs, seraphs, and the firstborn of all creation.

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