Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Duran
    Duran
    In your response, the bolded sections seem intended to reinforce an argument that Jesus is not divine or equal with God by emphasizing distinctions between the Father and the Son. The comments appear to suggest that Jesus’ role as the “last Adam” and “Son of God” should not imply divinity but rather align him with humanity. Furthermore, references to Philippians 2:6 in the New World Translation attempt to argue that Jesus does not claim equality with God.

    You just keep showing yourself to be a rambling fool. I did not make any commentary there about divinity or equality in regard to Jehovah and Jesus. My focus is the bolden areas, not necessary the context. So, the rambling you keep doing is pointless and has nothing to do with what is shown in the bolden.

    To start it says that God is a spirit. (That is God's form, a spirit being.) This is the foundation, 'God' is a spirit being.

    God created other spirit beings. Those spirit beings are said to be God's spirit sons. God and his spirit sons are heavenly.

    God also created a man (Adam) on earth from dust. Adam is said to be God's human son. (God created Eve as well, a woman who is God's human daughter.)

    All persons that come from Adam and Eve are humans on earth. All in heaven including God himself are spirit beings.1 Corinthians 15:45,48

    God's firstborn/begotten son Jesus, a spirit being in heaven came to earth and took on a human form by being born from Mary. (That coming to earth then as a human is considered his first time.)

    After 40 days from his resurrection as a human he returned to heaven as a spirit being again.

    After the future GT, Jesus is said to come to earth again which will be his second coming.

    1 Peter 3:18,19;Acts 1:3,9-11;Hebrews 1:6;9:28;Mark 13:24-26

    Everything I said here is accurate and should be in agreement with trinity believes and those who do not believe the trinity.

    There is no reason here to say, 'yeah it is accurate, but Jesus is not God' or 'yeah it is accurate, but Jesus is God'.

    All that matters at this point is that events happen that bring about the GT, so that Jesus can come after. I don't care if Jesus God shows up or Jesus, son of God shows up. If the Bible's version of the GT never happens then like the atheist believe now, the Bible is just a bunch of BS.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    While it's true that God is spirit (John 4:24), this statement does not imply that all spiritual beings are of the same divine essence or status as God. Angels are created beings, not divine in the same way as God. Scripture clearly distinguishes God’s nature from that of created spirits, such as angels, and nowhere does it imply that angels or other spiritual beings are equal to God in essence, power, or authority. Hebrews 1:3-4 tells us that Jesus is “the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,” which sets Him apart from all other created beings, showing that He shares in the divine essence in a unique way that angels do not.

    The Bible reveals that, though Jesus took on human flesh (Philippians 2:6-8), He did not lose His divinity or revert back to a purely “spiritual” form after the resurrection. Instead, He was raised in a glorified body, still fully divine and fully human. When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, He specifically showed them His physical wounds and ate with them to prove that He was not merely a spirit (Luke 24:39-43). This indicates that His resurrection body was glorified but still physical, which is consistent with the Christian teaching of bodily resurrection rather than a return to a purely spiritual form.

    In Luke 24:39, Jesus explicitly states, “Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” This verse highlights that Jesus was raised in a glorified, physical body, not as a spirit being. The resurrection was not merely spiritual but bodily, as affirmed in passages like 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 and Philippians 3:21, which speak of a transformation from a perishable body to an imperishable, glorified body. The physicality of Jesus’ resurrection is central to Christian theology, as it demonstrates the bodily resurrection that believers hope to share.

    The term “firstborn” (e.g., Colossians 1:15) in Scripture does not imply that Jesus was created. In ancient contexts, "firstborn" often referred to rank and inheritance rights rather than to birth order. In the case of Jesus, “firstborn” means preeminent, indicating His supreme status over all creation, not that He is a created being. In fact, Colossians 1:16-17 clarifies that all things were created through Jesus and for Him, establishing Him as the Creator rather than a part of creation.

    As mentioned, Jesus did not revert to being solely a spirit after His resurrection. His ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) was in His glorified body. The angel’s statement to the apostles—“This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go”—emphasizes that He will return visibly and bodily, not merely as an invisible spirit.

    The identity of Jesus as both God and the Son of God is foundational to Christian belief and deeply impacts how believers understand His authority and the significance of His return. Scripture presents Jesus as fully divine (e.g., John 1:1-3; Colossians 2:9), not merely as a high-ranking spiritual being. If Jesus were not God, His sacrifice on the cross would not suffice for the redemption of humanity, and His role as the final judge of the world (Acts 17:31; Matthew 25:31-46) would be inconsistent. His divinity assures believers of His power to save and His authority over all creation.

    The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t “a later addition” but a conclusion drawn from the consistent biblical portrayal of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as sharing one divine essence while relating as distinct persons. Passages like Matthew 28:19 (“baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) and 2 Corinthians 13:14 (“the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit”) reflect this triune relationship.

    Trinitarian belief holds that Jesus is fully God and fully human, the second Person of the Trinity. Passages like John 1:1-14 affirm Jesus’ deity, stating that “the Word was God” and that “the Word became flesh.” Ignoring Jesus’ divine identity undermines the biblical presentation of who Jesus is and why he alone is qualified to save humanity from sin. When Jesus states, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), he affirms his divine nature, making it clear that his coming is not merely as a representative of God but as God incarnate.

    By emphasizing God and Jesus as separate spirit beings, you overlook the Trinitarian doctrine that includes the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person within the Godhead. According to John 14:16-17, Jesus promised that after his ascension, the Holy Spirit would come to dwell within believers, continuing God’s work on earth. This is a unique role of the Holy Spirit, demonstrating the ongoing presence of God with his people in a way that is distinct from both the Father and the Son. The New Testament consistently presents a triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—working in unity to fulfill God’s redemptive plan.

    Your claim that Jesus will return to earth as a spirit being lacks biblical support. Acts 1:11 describes the manner of Jesus’ return, as the angels tell the apostles, “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” This indicates a visible, physical return, not a mere spiritual appearance. Revelation 1:7 also states, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” These passages point to a literal, visible return of Jesus, challenging the idea that he would return as an invisible spirit.

    You assert that it doesn’t matter whether “Jesus God” or “Jesus, son of God” returns, as long as the GT happens. However, the Bible emphasizes the importance of Jesus’ divine and human natures in his work of redemption. 1 Timothy 2:5 states, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” If Jesus were not both fully divine and fully human, he could not effectively mediate between God and humanity. His dual nature is essential to his role in salvation, and to disregard this is to overlook a foundational aspect of the Christian faith.

  • Duran
    Duran

    Once again being the fool that you are it is no surprise that you can't resist responding with your nonsense claims.

    While it's true that God is spirit (John 4:24), this statement does not imply that all spiritual beings are of the same divine essence or status as God. Angels are created beings, not divine in the same way as God.

    Nothing I wrote was implying about 'spirt beings' being the same in divinity or status. My only emphasis was that all beings in heaven are spirits.

    The term “firstborn” (e.g., Colossians 1:15) in Scripture does not imply that Jesus was created.

    Nothing I wrote implied that Jesus was created or not.

    The Bible reveals that, though Jesus took on human flesh (Philippians 2:6-8), He did not lose His divinity or revert back to a purely “spiritual” form after the resurrection.
    As mentioned, Jesus did not revert to being solely a spirit after His resurrection. His ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) was in His glorified body. The angel’s statement to the apostles—“This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go”—emphasizes that He will return visibly and bodily, not merely as an invisible spirit.

    Learn to understand what you read. I never said upon when he was resurrected that he returned to being a spirit, I said 40 days AFTER he was resurrected as a human, he returned to heaven as a spirit again. And I never said that he comes back invisible. I said he came to earth as a human the first time when born to Mary and will come again a second time after the GT. I cited Scriptures including what you show there in Acts that show he will be seen when he comes again.

    You assert that it doesn’t matter whether “Jesus God” or “Jesus, son of God” returns, as long as the GT happens.

    Again, you have no understanding whatsoever. My point was being that Jesus is said to come AFTER the GT then what matters now is the events (WW3) take place to bring on the GT (42-month 8th king) so that he can come AFTER such time. If the GT never comes, it does not matter what version Jesus is, because neither version will ever come.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    You emphasized that all beings in heaven are spirit beings, not implying they are of the same divinity or status as God. However, this distinction is critical in Christian theology, especially concerning the nature of Christ. While beings in heaven may be “spirits,” the term does not imply homogeneity in essence or status. Scripture makes clear distinctions, not only in terms of created versus uncreated beings but in unique aspects of divine authority and power. Hebrews 1:3-4, for example, explains that Jesus is the “exact representation of God’s being,” establishing Him as of the same essence as God in a way no angel or created spirit is. This distinction matters, as it underscores why Jesus is worshipped and adored in a manner distinct from other spirit beings in heaven.

    You mentioned that you were not implying Jesus was created. However, when discussing the term “firstborn,” it’s essential to clarify that in Scripture, “firstborn” (prototokos) often implies preeminence in rank, not necessarily birth order or creation. In Jewish and ancient cultural context, “firstborn” denotes inheritance rights, authority, and honor. Colossians 1:15, therefore, affirms Jesus’ supremacy over creation without indicating He was created. This understanding aligns with the surrounding verses (Colossians 1:16-17), which affirm that “all things were created through Him and for Him.” A created being could not be responsible for creating “all things,” as only the uncreated can hold this status.

    You stated that after His 40-day period on earth post-resurrection, Jesus returned to heaven “as a spirit.” However, the biblical witness in passages like Acts 1:9-11 and Luke 24:39-43 highlights that Jesus ascended in His glorified, physical body, which is now eternal and imperishable. This body was witnessed by His disciples, emphasizing continuity rather than change. In Acts 1:11, the angel specifies that “this same Jesus” will return “in the same way you have seen him go,” implying a visible, bodily return. This continuity is crucial because Jesus retains His resurrected, glorified body, even in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), illustrating the Christian hope of bodily resurrection.

    You mentioned that what matters is that events like World War III and the Great Tribulation must occur to bring about the return of Christ. While the sequence of eschatological events is significant, the identity of Christ—whether He is seen as merely the “Son of God” in a lesser sense or as fully divine—remains paramount. Christian theology teaches that Jesus’ divine and human natures are essential for His mediatorial work (1 Timothy 2:5). This dual nature—fully God and fully human—assures Christians that He has the power to redeem humanity and the authority to judge. Therefore, recognizing Jesus’ divine identity is central to understanding His role in the end times.

    To summarize, the Scriptures present Jesus not as a spirit being who reverted to mere spirituality but as the eternal, incarnate Word who ascended with a glorified body and will return visibly. The continuity in His divine-human identity before and after the resurrection is vital in Christian doctrine, affirming both His divinity and His role as the awaited Redeemer.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Nathan Natas : How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    Interesting question, especially if angels are not in material form. This is discussed in Notes & Queries, Volume 63, Issue 1, where the writer suggests the query about how many angels might sit on a needle's point was first raised in the 16th century as a critique of medieval angelology because it makes a pun on ‘needless point’. He writes (p.385) :

    … they fell to Disputations about the time of their Creation; whether it were before, or with the visible World; whether on the first day, or when they were created. Touching their Orders, what, and how many they were, their number, whether more fell or stood: whether they did occupie a place; and so, whether many might be in one place at one time; and how many might sit on a Needles point; and six hundred such like needlesse points.

    I do believe I have seen some of those needlesse points discussed on this very thread.

    But while many of these points are needless and mere speculation, the substance of the thread which relates to Jesus Christ being "the beginning of the creation (ktiseōs) by God" is relevant because it impinges on the shema : (Deuteronomy 6:4) "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah".

    This expression "the beginning of the creation by God" (he arche tes ktiseos tou theou) echoes Proverbs 8:22 (LXX) "Lord [referring to Jehovah] created me the beginning of his ways" (kurios ektise me archen hodon autou), and so the meaning of this verse in Proverbs reflects on the meaning of the verse in Revelation.

    There has been ample discussion whether ektise means created/made or possessed but I would suggest the most sensible course is to see how it is used elsewhere in the Bible. These are the places they occur in scripture, apart from Proverbs 8 and Revelation 3.

    Mark 10:6 from [the] beginning of creation (arkhes ktiseos) ‘He made them male and female’.

    Mark 13:19 a tribulation such as has not occurred from [the] beginning of the creation which God created (arkhes ktiseon hen ektisen ho theos)

    Romans 1:20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation (ktiseos kosmou) onward

    Romans 8:19 For the eager expectation of the creation (tes ktiseos)

    Colossians 1:15 He is … the firstborn of all creation (prototokos pases ktiseos)

    1 Timothy 4:3 … commanding to abstain from foods which God created (ho theos ektisen)

    Hebrews 9:11 when Christ came as a high priest … through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation (ou tautes tes ktiseos)

    2 Peter 3:4 … all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning (ap arkhes ktiseos)

    Revelation 10:6 and by the One … who created (hos ektisen) the heaven and the … earth and the … sea

    There seems to be a common theme.

    It is true that the Hebrew word used in Proverbs 8:22 (qanani from qanah) conveys the idea that God acquires or possesses creation by virtue of his creative power (Genesis 14:19,22). So “formed me” (NLT), “possessed me” (ESV), “created me” (BSB), “made me” (ISV) are all acceptable translations of Proverbs 8. But we need to ask out of all these nuances of the word qanah, why did the Greek translators of Proverbs choose ektise which clearly means create if we are to accept how the Bible uses it. We simply don’t know. But it was this Greek translation which was read and used by the writers of the NT as can be seen by the allusion in Revelation 3:14. We also know this because the quotations of Proverbs 8 by various writers in the first four centuries almost always use this translation. See Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian , Origen, Methodius, Dionysius , Augustine, Eusebius , Socrates, Theodoret, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, John of Damascus , Ambrose.

    Certainly, some of these believed the trinity and argued for it at Nicaea and elsewhere. That is not my point. My point is that every one of these church fathers, both ante and post-Nicaea, accepted that Proverbs read that Wisdom was created AND they accepted this referred to Christ. Some of them also argued, as you have done, that it didn’t really mean that God created Christ or they said it only applied to his human existence. All of that is interpretation. And you are as entitled to your interpretation as much as anyone else. We come back to dancing on pins. But the clear statement of (LXX) scripture is that Wisdom was created, and so this reflects on the meaning of Revelation 3:14 as well. No wonder some good scribe (of Sinaiticus) wanted to remove it.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    You draw a connection between Revelation 3:14, which refers to Christ as "the archē of the creation of God" (ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ), and Proverbs 8:22 (LXX), where Wisdom says, "The Lord ektise me as [not “at”!] the archē of his ways." While there is a surface-level similarity, it's important to delve into the nuances of the language and theological implications.

    In Revelation 3:14, “the archē” can mean not only “the first in a sequence” but also “the source” or “origin.” In John’s writings, including his Gospel, archē often signifies origin or foundational principle (see John 1:1, "In the beginning," En archē). Thus, in Revelation, archē likely conveys Christ as the origin or source of creation, rather than a part of it. This interpretation aligns with the broader Johannine theology, where Christ is depicted as the divine Logos, existing eternally and distinct from created beings (John 1:3).

    While ektise in the Septuagint (LXX) translation of Proverbs 8:22 can be rendered as “created,” we need to consider why the Hebrew term qanah (קָנָה) was translated this way in the LXX. Qanah has a broader semantic range in Hebrew, encompassing meanings like “acquire,” “possess,” or “bring forth.” Scholars have debated this translation choice, and some argue that qanah in Proverbs 8:22 could imply “possess” or “acquire” rather than “create.”

    The LXX translators, possibly due to the limitations of the Greek language in capturing the full nuance of qanah, chose ektise, which indeed has a more restricted sense of “create” in Greek. This choice may reflect the translators’ interpretation rather than an inherent meaning in the original Hebrew. Therefore, while the Greek word ektise can mean “create,” the underlying Hebrew context allows for a broader range of meanings, including “possess.”

    You provided several verses where ktisis (creation) and ektizo (to create) are used, suggesting a common theme of creation. However, let’s examine how these terms are used specifically in contexts referring to the order and structure of the world, rather than implying that Christ is part of creation in a temporal sense:

    • Mark 10:6 and Mark 13:19 speak of “the beginning of creation,” referencing the start of the physical world.
    • Romans 1:20 and Romans 8:19 use ktisis to speak of the natural world that reveals God’s invisible qualities and eagerly awaits redemption.
    • Colossians 1:15, a key verse, refers to Christ as the “firstborn of all creation.” Here, prototokos (firstborn) implies preeminence or supremacy, not creation. Paul goes on to clarify in Colossians 1:16-17 that all things were created “through him and for him,” underscoring Christ’s role as the agent of creation, not as a created being.

    These usages consistently show that ktisis in the New Testament refers to the created order in relation to Christ’s authority over it, rather than indicating that Christ Himself is part of the created order. When interpreting Revelation 3:14 in light of these passages, it is consistent to understand “the beginning of the creation of God” as Christ’s role in initiating and sustaining creation, not as a declaration of His own creation.

    You noted that early church fathers interpreted Proverbs 8:22 as referring to Christ and that they used the LXX’s “created” language. While it’s true that church fathers like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Origen acknowledged the LXX translation, their understanding of “created” in relation to Christ varied greatly:

    · Origen argued for the eternal generation of the Son, interpreting “created” in Proverbs 8 as applicable to Christ’s role in manifesting God’s wisdom to creation, not as a literal act of creation. He understood ektise metaphorically, affirming that the Son is eternally begotten, not made.

    · Athanasius and others at Nicaea argued that “created” in Proverbs 8 referred to the incarnation or to Christ’s role in the created order, not His divine essence. This distinction was crucial to counter Arian arguments that claimed Christ was a creature. Athanasius emphasized that ektise in Proverbs 8 should be understood in a poetic or relational sense, affirming Christ’s divinity and co-eternity with the Father.

    · Post-Nicene Fathers like Augustine and the Cappadocians continued this interpretation, seeing “created” in a metaphorical sense that underscores the Son’s unique relationship with the Father and the created order. For them, Proverbs 8 reflected Wisdom’s manifestation, not a literal beginning.

    The argument that archē in Revelation 3:14 should mean “beginning” as in “first created” neglects the wider Johannine usage of the term. In John’s Gospel, archē is repeatedly used in relation to God’s eternal nature and the Logos. Understanding archē as “origin” or “source” is consistent with John 1:3, where it’s clear that “all things were made through” the Logos, who Himself is uncreated.

    Thus, interpreting archē in Revelation 3:14 as implying Christ’s status as a creature conflicts with the broader Johannine theme of Christ’s preexistent, divine role in creation. This interpretation has been historically affirmed by church fathers and is reflected in doctrinal affirmations like the Nicene Creed, which calls Christ “begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father.”

    In conclusion, the arguments for Christ being “the beginning of creation” as a created being are not supported by the language of Scripture when analyzed in its broader theological context. The phrase in Revelation 3:14 aligns with the interpretation of Christ as the origin and ruler of creation, not a created being. Proverbs 8:22’s use of “created” is poetic and relational, reflecting Wisdom’s role rather than a literal act of creation. Early church fathers recognized this nuance, interpreting ektise in light of Christ’s divinity and eternal relationship with the Father, a point further clarified in the doctrines developed in response to Arian controversies.

    By maintaining this interpretation, we respect both the scriptural and historical context, affirming the church’s traditional understanding of Christ as the uncreated, divine Logos, eternally begotten and fully divine.

  • Duran
    Duran
    You emphasized that all beings in heaven are spirit beings, not implying they are of the same divinity or status as God.

    Bees are bees! In a hive there is a queen bee and worker bees. The queen has a status, and all the worker bees have a status relative to the queen and each other, but regardless of status they are all bees.

    God has his status like the queen bee does, and like the worker bees, all of God's heavenly sons have their status relative to God and to each other, but regardless of status they are all spirit beings.

    [24 God is a Spirit,]

    [48 ...like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.]

    [ 14 Are they not all spirits...]

    Hebrews 1:3-4, for example, explains that Jesus is the “exact representation of God’s being,”

    exact - precise - marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail

    representation - the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone

    [ 49 For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.]

    He has the power to redeem humanity and the authority to judge.

    Jehovah gave him that power and authority.

    [ 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.]

    [18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.]

    [ 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.]

    [3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.]

    You stated that after His 40-day period on earth post-resurrection, Jesus returned to heaven “as a spirit.” However, the biblical witness in passages like Acts 1:9-11 and Luke 24:39-43 highlights that Jesus ascended in His glorified, physical body, which is now eternal and imperishable.

    LOL! In those passages, YES, they describe a physical body. I never claimed other. Just as Lazaras was resurrected with his same body he died with; Jesus was resurrected with his same body that was on the stake.

    As far as returning to heaven as a spirit on the 40th day, they saw him in his physical human body until the clouds blocked their view. From that point on he would have become a spirit being again. When he returns it says it will be in the same manner as they saw him leaving, meaning appearing from out of the clouds in a physical body again. His body at that point will a different one/a new one just as those that will be resurrected will have different/new ones.

    The two angels that were with Lot are spirit beings from heaven, yet when on earth they appeared to Lot in physical bodies, do you think those two angels are back in heaven now with those same physical bodies or were the bodies discarded with, and they returned to being spirit beings...

    Luke 24:39-43;Acts 1:9-11;Mark 13:24-26;Genesis 19:1-3

  • blondie
    blondie

    Duran, I like your explanation, but people set in the beliefs, might have cognitive dissonance. I am a bible reader for research purposes, but don't have any personal beliefs either way on this topic.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    Your analogy likens God and His heavenly beings to a hive of bees, with God as the “queen” and others as “worker bees,” suggesting all heavenly beings share the same essential nature, with differences only in role. This fails to capture the unique nature of God as revealed in Scripture, where God alone is described as eternal, uncreated, and possessing the fullness of deity. In John 4:24, "God is Spirit," but the term does not imply equality of essence with all spirit beings. For instance, Hebrews 1:7, 14 distinguishes between the Son and created spirit beings, angels, who serve God but do not share His divine essence or authority. Hebrews 1:3-4 explicitly affirms Jesus as the “exact representation of His [God’s] being,” signifying a unique identity and essence that is distinct from that of created beings.

    You mention that "exact representation" implies Jesus acts “on behalf of” God, but the Greek term charaktēr used here means “express image” or “exact imprint,” referring to an identity in essence, not merely function. Jesus’ relationship to the Father is distinct from mere representation or agency because He possesses the same divine nature, as seen in passages like Colossians 2:9: “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” Therefore, Jesus’ authority and power are not borrowed or transient; they belong to Him as part of His divine identity.

    So in Hebrews 1:3, the term charaktēr (χαρακτήρ) is used to describe Jesus as the “exact representation” of God’s hupostasis (ὑπόστασις), or essence. This term, historically used in Greek to refer to a precise engraving or stamp, conveys that Jesus is an exact and unique imprint of God’s nature, not a created replica but a direct and identical image of the divine essence. This makes it clear that Jesus is not merely a messenger or servant, as angels or prophets would be, but one who possesses the same divine nature as God.

    The early church used hupostasis to articulate the shared essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus, as charaktēr of God’s hupostasis, reflects and embodies God’s nature perfectly, making Him fully and truly divine, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father. This supports the theological claim that Jesus, though distinct in personhood, is fully one with the Father in essence.

    You argue that Jesus’ authority and power were granted by Jehovah, thus implying inferiority. While Jesus acknowledges receiving authority from the Father (e.g., Matthew 28:18), this does not imply He lacks divinity. In Philippians 2:6-11, we learn that Jesus, “being in very nature God,” voluntarily humbled Himself and accepted a human form, choosing to subordinate Himself for the purpose of redemption. His willing submission, even though He is equal with the Father, reflects the mystery of the Incarnation rather than a limitation of His divine nature. Furthermore, His power to judge (John 5:22-27) is integral to His divine role and identity.

    In your response, you suggest that Jesus resumed a "spirit form" after His ascension, using an analogy with angels who took physical form on earth. However, Scripture presents Jesus’ resurrection body as uniquely different from temporary appearances by angels. After His resurrection, Jesus’ body is described as "imperishable" (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), signifying an eternal, glorified body that does not revert to a non-physical form. Acts 1:11 emphasizes continuity by declaring that Jesus will return “in the same way you have seen him go.” This statement affirms that His glorified body is permanent, fitting Christian hope for resurrection. Jesus’ post-resurrection interactions (Luke 24:39-43) emphasize the physical reality and permanence of His glorified body, distinct from temporary, materialized forms.

    The concept that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human is not an arbitrary doctrine but essential to Christian faith and salvation (Hebrews 2:14-17). Only by possessing both natures can Jesus serve as the mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). This dual nature—fully God and fully man—ensures that He can accomplish redemption and fulfill the role of an eternal High Priest, sympathizing with our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:15).

    You equate Jesus’ resurrected body with that of Lazarus, implying that Jesus returned in the same earthly body only to abandon it later. However, the resurrection of Jesus differs fundamentally from Lazarus’s. Lazarus was brought back to mortal life in his original, corruptible body and would eventually die again. In contrast, Jesus’ resurrection body is described as “imperishable” and “immortal” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), one that will never decay or die. Romans 6:9 affirms, "Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” His resurrection was not a temporary return to human life but the beginning of eternal, glorified life.

    When Jesus invites his disciples to touch his hands and side in Luke 24:39 and John 20:27, he is demonstrating that he has a physical body that is still glorified. This body is not like the earthly body of Lazarus, as it transcends normal human limitations, evidenced by Jesus’ ability to appear in locked rooms (John 20:19, 26) and ascend into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) in the same glorified form.

    You claim that Jesus “became a spirit being” after ascending through the clouds, suggesting a transformation into a purely spiritual form once he left their sight. However, Acts 1:9-11 does not indicate any such change. The passage describes Jesus being “taken up” in a visible, physical manner, witnessed by the apostles. The two angels present immediately clarify that Jesus “will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven,” which implies a physical return, not a spiritual or metaphorical one. This affirms that he ascended in the same glorified body in which he was resurrected, and it is this same body in which he will return.

    The notion that Jesus “became a spirit being” upon leaving sight contradicts the biblical teaching of his bodily resurrection and glorified ascension. Jesus did not shed his body or become a disembodied spirit; rather, he remains incarnate, as emphasized in Philippians 3:21, which promises believers that Christ “will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body.” This continuity emphasizes that Jesus remains fully God and fully human—body and spirit—in his glorified state.

    Your comparison of Jesus’ resurrection body with the physical forms of angels who appeared on earth (as in Genesis 19) misunderstands the nature of Jesus' incarnation and glorification. Angels temporarily take physical forms when interacting with humans, but these forms are not their true essence. Jesus’ incarnation, by contrast, is a permanent union of God with human nature. Colossians 2:9 states, “In him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily.” Jesus’ physical, glorified body is essential to his identity as the God-Man, unlike angels, who temporarily manifest in physical forms without permanently assuming human nature.

    Furthermore, the Epistle to the Hebrews highlights the unique status of Jesus’ humanity: “He had to be made like his brothers in every respect” (Hebrews 2:17). This humanity was not discarded at the ascension. Jesus is unique among all beings, as he is truly God and truly human, and his resurrection affirms the permanent glorification of his humanity.

    When Acts 1:11 says that Jesus will “come in the same way,” it does not suggest a temporary, physical appearance like that of angels. Instead, it points to a visible, physical return in his glorified body. The imagery of coming “in the clouds” or “on the clouds” in passages like Mark 13:26 and Revelation 1:7 symbolizes divine authority and glory, not a mere temporary physical manifestation. Jesus’ return will be both bodily and glorious, consistent with his resurrected and ascended state, not as a temporary spirit manifestation or shedding of his human nature.

    Your description seems to deny the permanent reality of Jesus’ incarnation, which is central to Trinitarian belief and Christian hope. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus' bodily resurrection and ascension guarantee believers’ future resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 emphasizes that Christ is “the firstfruits” of those who have fallen asleep, meaning his resurrection is the pattern and guarantee of the resurrection of believers. If Jesus merely discarded his body, as angels discard temporary forms, then this hope is undermined. Instead, Christians believe that Jesus remains the risen, glorified God-Man who intercedes for humanity and will return in the same glorified body to judge and redeem the world.

    In conclusion, the passages you reference do not imply a lesser nature or diminished status for Jesus. Instead, they emphasize Jesus' unique role as fully divine and fully human. The distinctions made in Hebrews 1 and throughout Scripture affirm Jesus' equality with God in nature, while also highlighting His willing subordination in function within the divine plan.

    Your claim that Jesus became a spirit being after his ascension conflicts with the consistent biblical teaching that his resurrected, glorified body is eternal and that he remains fully incarnate. His ascension and promised return underscore that he did not abandon his humanity; instead, he raised it to a glorified, eternal state. This belief is essential to understanding Jesus’ role as the eternal Mediator and Savior, who will return in the same glorified body to fulfill God’s promises.

  • Duran
    Duran

    @aqwsed

    Okay, your right, Jesus is everything you believe he is. All non-believing trinitarians are wrong.

    What happens to a trinitarian that died yesterday?

    What happens to a non-trinitarian that died yesterday?

    Today, what is a living trinitarian (YOU) waiting to take place next in regard to Bible prophecy?

    When do YOU believe that Jesus (God) will return according to Bible prophecy?

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