Orphan,
I believe you, but I would have complete trust if you gave us some specifics and references to those tax laws. I know you are a resourceful person and charitable with inquiring minds.
Reasons for concluding that Watchtower is in (serious) financial trouble
by slimboyfat 151 Replies latest members private
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never a jw
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OrphanCrow
neverajw: I believe you, but I would have complete trust if you gave us some specifics and references to those tax laws.
I am looking for tax laws in different countries - they vary dependent upon the location.
I am not sure why, but the insider rules and regulations aren't that easy to find. Admittedly, I am flying by the seat of my pants on this and have based my observations on what I know about how non-profits operate in Canada (I used to work in the non-profit sector for a bit).
For example, within Canada, the acceptable disbursement quota for charities is 80-20. In other words, the amount of revenue that a charity brings in has to show that they have spent 80% of their income on charitable activities. The org solved this problem by simply transferring excess funds to the American corporation by designating the WTS/org as a "qualified donee". It was also in Canada where they changed the rules on a charity holding loans for the charities under their umbrella - the CRA nixed that little move and voila! the org changed their Kingdom Hall loan system.
There is so much going on in Europe concerning how churches are funded that I am having a difficult time keeping up with how changes in tax law are impacting how the org is structuring their funding. I am assuming that funding changes are being made universal so that the org can claim their tax free status in countries other than the States so it becomes a bit of a nightmare trying to figure out which country has the most influence on how the org is financially structured
I will keep looking...
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OrphanCrow
NeveraJW, I just went for a walk and did some more thinking on this...
The push for donations has become more and more pronounced in the past few years and I think it has something to do with the re-structuring that occurred back in 2000 or so. Up until that time, the Jehovah's Witnesses were part and parcel of the Watchtower Society (in all its forms and corporations...in my day, it was just "The Society").
When "The Society" made its move and set up the "Christian Congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses", it was the beginning of the attempt to make the religion self-sufficient. For probably several rea$onS but the primary one would be of course, $$$. Since that time, the org has desperately (I never know which term to use...WT, WTS, org, GB, JWs...) had to find ways to exists independent of "The Society" (again...for various reasons). And, one of the things they have had to do to is to adhere to "religious" models of funding. Simply because the JWs are an 'independent' 'religion' now. All the foofoorah and such around donations and building, etc, are simply the contortions that the "new" jworg is going through while they get used to their new positioning within "The Society".
The org has entered into mainstream religious taxation regulations without the help and support of "the Society" - they are just being told to buckle up and pull their fair share of the load within that nebulous and convoluted beast that is loosely known as "The Society". And, once the JW religion had its own entity, the "Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses" was eligible for all sorts of granting and funding benefits - just like all the other churches and charities.
That is why they need donations - they are out there all by themselves now - arm's length from "the Society". And a donation funding structure is essential for a non-profit to qualify for matching grants etc. And to keep their tax free status
Sink or swim, all you guppies
Does the WTS need money? Of course they do. When ya gots yourself a bucketful, ya needs more to keep that bucket full. So they are sucking the JW membership dry to keep their bucket full
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sparky1
OrphanCrow is on the right track (in my humble opinion). I agree that this organization is no where near collapse. The Jehovah's Witness religion is now running two separate corporations side by side. I learned this basic business move when I was a very young man. One corporation for the product that you make and one corporation for the distribution of the product. One of the corporations must always lose money as it pays all of its profit to the other corporation. This is what you see going on now in the Jehovah's Witness religion. When Lett gets on the website and declares that 'there is more money going out than coming in', technically he is not lying. He is reading from the corporate balance sheet and or the P&L from the losing corporation. I have tried to explain this before but to no avail. I thank OrphanCrow for stimulating me to repost this idea. Of course, I have no concrete data to prove this contention, only my 40 years business experience and my lifetime exposure to this religion.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have two corporations registered with the Internal Revenue Service here in the United States:
EIN#11-1753577 Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York Inc
EIN#22-3765681 Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
They are experiencing a cash flow crunch as they transition from a printing business model to a real estate business model. Following the 'theory of the multiplier', their cash issues will level off as soon as their expenses in building new real estate are no longer exceeded by the income from 'perpetual kingdom hall lease donations'. Once they reach a tipping point, the 'perpetual kingdom hall lease donations' will outpace what they are currently paying out.
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TheWonderofYou
splitting off from the society was necessary to get finally a non profit order for the donations. But good old Soiety is furthermore acceptable as profit oriented business for profit?
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steve2
OrphanCrow - well thought out arguments.
BTW, I use the term "JW organization" when referring to the Watchtower and its convoluted satellites. I've made a point in the past year or two to consistently use that term. When people currently refer to "it" as the Watchtower or "the Society" they betray being much older individuals. Very few young ones would know that in the 40s through 80s, Witnesses and their literature talked about "the Society" as a short-hand term for their organization. Besides, the organization has deliberately downplayed the Watchtower signage, now going for new branding such as JW org.
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slimboyfat
If JWs were in receipt of grants from governments this information would be public. Where is it?
In the United Kingdom their accounts are public and there is no sign of income from grants or government schemes. (Maybe there are some very small instances, but so tiny to be insignificant to overall finances. However even this has not been shown.)
It's odd how this idea persists despite any evidence.
Watchtower may be restructuring, but are they restructuring in any way that is going to earn them income that will meet their expenses? That's the question.
They used to make money from selling books. Now they don't make any money from selling books. So where are they going to make their money now?
Sometimes people say Watchtower has "moved into the property business". This is nonsense. Selling off your assets and drawing down your savings is not a business. Selling property is a one time thing and does not generate an income.
Watchtower is like an old couple who worked all their lives but have no pension. So when the time comes to retire all they can do is sell their house and live off the money until it runs out. I guess you could put a gloss on it and say they've "moved into the property business". But that's deluded. They are selling off assets to keep afloat. And selling off assets is a windfall: it doesn't provide an income, it just delays the inevitable.
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_Morpheus
And slim we have argued this before but i agree in a limited way regarding their source of income. They sold books yes, but they sold them to jw’s. Thats the market. Im not saying that non witnesses never bought them but they were a small minority. The main consumer has always been jw’s themselves and the information is targeted towards
In that respect they havnt lost their cliental. They are just finding newer ways to separate their customer base from their money. In fact they may be better off without the overhead of printing but maintaining that base.
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sparky1
"The closures, cutbacks and begging continue. The collapse is underway." - slimboyfat Since your are so sure of the validity of your opening post, would you care to assign a time period as to when the collapse will be completed? 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or maybe an overlapping generations period of time? I'm serious, put your money where your mouth is and be man enough to back up your claims with a definite time period for this collapse.
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_Morpheus
Oh sparky sparky sparky..... ive tried that. Lots and lots of times. I got to him to commit to a two year demise (we are 7 months into that) but of course he swung in a different direction soon thereafter. He will vasilate and insist they are collapsing but then say the demise may last 100 years but they are in the midst of collapse but will be around for a long time with an older membership... see where this is going? Slim likes it both ways. He will argue any point of view that lets him seem smart but at the same time can be held against him.... you know.. kind of like a certain religious group... cant recall their name....
please note the following:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5101378106032128/cutback-prediction
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6045600026984448/perfect-storm-2018?page=2#!#5203787779145728
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5379395402334208/watchtower-does-have-resources
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5160617687121920/watchtower-starting-crumble
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4683990469443584/whats-destroying-watchtower
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4794894645198848/monthly-broadcast-change
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4685633277657088/if-watchtower-corporation-went-bust?page=2