hooberus,
the arguments on those apologist sites are even worse.
Your Ideas On The Bible?
by shamus 60 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hooberus
Dansk said:
Shamus,
You may be interested in the following:
'Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis.' The Miami Herald, Saturday, March 9, 2002 Final Edition, in its review of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism's new Torah and commentary entitled Etz Hayim (Tree of Life in Hebrew).Many "non-Orthodox" rabbis are in many ways just as liberal as liberal protestants, liberal theologians etc. They believe in the evolution of all things from life to fish to apes to man to religion etc.
Dansk said:
It must ALWAYS be realised, especially when we deal with the supposed origins of a people (especially when told by themselves) that we are dealing with legendary material, not historical.
So, I guess we should also through out American History (especially that written by Americans.
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bebu
I pray to God and beg him to help me find 'the truth' if it exists. When I pray, I even say to the 'person' I am praying to that I am not sure who or what he/she is, but I still pray.
This is the best way to pray when you don't know! Be honest about your pains and doubts.
As so many have mentioned, why is the Bible impossible to understand?
If it were truly impossible, NO ONE would understand any of it at all. It is difficult at points, but not impossible. I think the main points are fairly straightforward. These are the concepts we teach our kids in Sunday School. My kids grasp these things, and they have never been subjected to 5 meetings a week and rote memorization. They understand the essence: God is holy and good, and Jesus is the fullest way God revealed Himself as such. Forgiveness, love, integriy, mercy, etc., are not things we learn about to pass tests, but are the values of God which we must desire and practice. Christ living in us makes it all possible.
If God did inspire it, and wants us to learn from it, why did he deliberately write it in riddles? It should be plain and simple, with no possibility of being mis-interpreted, but it isn't.
Everyone comes across passages that are difficult; they are like beef jerky--taking (a lot) more time. Yet I have met many folks who have read the NT without any commentary, nor assistance from anyone else, and they could grasp the same meanings that I have grasped... But why is this?? Why do some people "get" the gist of the Bible, but not others?
We expect God to treat us like we are communists: everyone gets exactly the same. Is this expectation truly realistic? Even we realize we aren't all the same. God knows precisely why we are different, and what events lie ahead of us. It may not be that your heart is too hard at all, but that the best circumstances for God to reveal Himself to you are ahead of you, and they would be worth the wait. There's a lot of waiting going on in the Bible--but in God's timing, everything happens on time.
I don't doubt for one minute the experience you have had, but it seems to me that God is particularly choosy about who he allows to 'know' him. I really have tried so hard to find out about him, but have advanced absolutely nowhere over the past 20 years (and this hasn't been through lack of effort).
SM62, If your soul is thirsty for God, it's a great thing! God will feed those who hunger for Him. If God sees that you really do desire to know Him, He will reveal Himself. It will be worth it, so I wish to encourage you. The Bible says He is "worthy", which really means, "He is worth whatever you must endure to have Him". This is a very heavy thought, but it also reflects the greatness and majesty of God. God is not a cheap trinket. He will even forgive us if for ever treating Him as if we were--and that is really a further sign of how great He is.
Also, I really don't think you've gotten nowhere. It's just that at this moment you don't see what God has been up to! We all have made our timeschedules, of which God takes no notice ("fortunately", I always end up admitting). When God does reveal Himself, all this searching and waiting will be shown to have been part of God's very active working on you, making unique preparations for you. Your past will be understood in that context. You will be overwhelmed by the realization that you were never alone after all, and that God heard your very first call. That He is really good.
(Even if anyone is currently a staunch atheist, this period could yet prepare in him or her a deeper thirst for God than would have otherwise been had. God truly uses everything. )
Such is what my perspective has become.
bebu
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franklin J
Shamus,
I think your assesment of the Bible is on THE MARK. I agree with it.
My apologies to anyone who may be offended by this.
Frank
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SM62
Bebu,
You express your thoughts beautifully. I wish I had your faith.
When God does reveal Himself, all this searching and waiting will be shown to have been part of God's very active working on you, making unique preparations for you. Your past will be understood in that context. You will be overwhelmed by the realization that you were never alone after all, and that God heard your very first call.
I sometimes think I am very impatient and I get angry if I don't understand things straight away. Maybe I should do as you say, and just wait. I will still read, not just the Bible, but other books too. Recently I have started looking at some of the ancient Pagan religions too, just to see how they differ to Christianity. One thing that stands out is, taking Wicca as an example, they don't seem to have this evil entity - the Devil, Satan, Beelzebub or whatever you want to call him. There is no personification of evil in their religion which appeals to me. Maybe it's just that I don't have a good enough understanding yet.
Thanks
Terri
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greatteacher
Some excerpts from the book, ABSURDITIES OF THE BIBLE by Clarence Darrow:
They took a simple way to take one of Adam's ribs and cut it out and make it into a woman, Now, is that story a fact or a myth? How many preachers would say it was a myth? None! There are some people who still occupy Christian pulpits who say it is, but they used to send them to the stake for that.
If it isn't true then, what is? How much did they know about science in those days, how much did they know about the heavens and the earth? The earth was flat, or did God write that down, or did the old Hebrew write it down because he didn't know any better and nobody else then knew any better?
What was the heavens? The sun was made to light the day and the moon to light the night. The sun was pulled out in the day time and taken in at night and the moon was pulled across after the sun was taken out. I don't know what they did in the dark of the moon. They must have done something.
The stars, all there is about the stars, "the stars he made also." They were just "also." Did the person who wrote that know anything whatever about astronomy? Not a thing. They believed they were just little things up in the heavens, in the firmament, just a little way above the earth, about the size of a diamond in an alderman's shirt stud. They always believed it until astronomers came along and told them something different.
Adam and Eve were put in a garden where everything was lovely and there were no weeds to hoe down. They were allowed to stay there on one condition, and that is that they didn't eat of the tree of knowledge. That has been the condition of the Christian church from then until now. They haven't eaten as yet, as a rule they do not.
They were expelled from the garden, Eve was tempted by the snake who presumably spoke to her in Hebrew. And she fell for it and of course Adam fell for it, and then they were driven out. How many believe that story today?
If the Christian church doesn't believe it why doesn't it say so? You do not find them saying that. If they do not believe it here and there, someone says it. That is, he says it at great danger to his immortal soul, to say nothing of his good standing in his church.
And Eve and all of her daughters to the end of time were condemned to bring forth children in pain and agony. Lovely God,isn't it? Lovely?
If that story was necessary to keep me out of hell and put me in heaven -- necessary for my life -- I wouldn't believe it because I couldn't believe it.
I do not think any God could have done it and I wouldn't worship a God who would. It is contrary to every sense of justice that we know anything about.
God had a great deal of trouble with the earth after he made it. People were building a tower -- the Tower of Babylon -- so that they could go up and peek over.
God didn't want them to do that and so confounded their tongues. A man would call up for a pall of mortar and they would send him up a tub of suds, or something like that. They couldn't understand each other.
Is that true? How did they happen to right it? They found there were various languages; and that is the origin of the languages. Everybody knows better today.
Is that story true? Did God write it? He must have known; he must have been all-knowing then as he is all-knowing now.
I do not need to mention them. You remember that joyride that Balaam was taking on the ass. That was the only means of locomotion they had besides walking. It is the only one pretty near that they have now. Balaam wanted to get along too fast and he was beating the ass and the ass turned around and asked him what he was doing it for. In Hebrew, of course. It must have been in Hebrew for Balaam was a Jew.
And Joshua Said to the Sun, "Stand Still."
Is that true or is it a story?
And Joshua; you remember about Joshua.
He was a great general. Very righteous and he was killing a lot of people and he hadn't quite finished the job and so he turned to the mountain top and said to the sun, "Stand still till I finish this job," and it stood still.
Is that one of the true ones or one of the foolish ones?
There are several things that that does. It shows how little they knew about the earth and day and night. Of course, they thought that if the sun stood still it wouldn't be pulled along any further and the night wouldn't come on. We know that if it had stood still from that day to this it wouldn't have affected the day or night; that is affected by the revolution of the earth on its axis.
Is it true? Am I wicked because I know it cannot possibly be true? Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul?
Child, born of a virgin! There were at least four miraculous births recorded in the Testament. There was Sarah's child, therewas Samson, there was John the Baptist, and there was Jesus. Miraculous births were rather a fashionable thing in those days, especially in Rome, where most of the theology was laid out.
Caesar had a miraculous birth, Cicero, Alexander from Macedonia -- nobody was in style or great unless he had a miraculous birth. It was a land of miracles.
What evidence is there of it? How much evidence would it require for intelligent people to believe such a story? It wouldn't be possible to bring evidence anywhere in this civilized land today, right under your own noses. Nobody would believe it anyway, and yet some people say that you must believe that without a scintilla of evidence of any sort.
Jesus had brothers and sisters older than Himself. His genealogy by Matthew is traced to his father, Joseph, in the first chapter of Matthew. Read that. What did he do?
Well, now, probably some of his teachings were good. We have heard about the Sermon on the Mount. There isn't a single word contained in the Sermon on the Mount that isn't contained in what is called the Sacred Book of the Jews, long before He lived -- not one single thing.
Jesus was an excellent student of Jewish theology, as anybody can tell by reading the Gospels; every bit of it was taken from their books of authority, and He simply said what He had heard of for years and years.
But let's look at some things charged to Him. He walked on the water. Now how does that sound? Do you suppose Jesus walked on the water? Joe Smith tried it when he established the Mormon religion. What evidence have you of that?
He found some of His disciples fishing and they hadn't gotten a bite all day. Jesus said, "Cast your nets down there," and they drew them in full of fish. The East Indians couldn't do better than that. What evidence is there of it?
He was at a performance where there were 5,000 people and they were out of food, and He asked them how much they had; five loaves and three fishes, or three fishes and five loaves, or something like that, and He made the five loaves and three fishes feed all the multitude and they picked up I don't know how many barrels afterward. Think of that.
How does that commend itself to intelligent people, coming from a land of myth and fable as all Asia was, a land of myth and fable and ignorance in the main, and before anybody knew anything about science? And yet that must be believed -- and is -- to save us from our sins.
What are these sins? What has the human race done that was so bad, except to eat of the tree of knowledge? Does anybody need to save man from his sins in a miraculous way? It is an absurd piece of theology which they themselves say that you must accept on faith because your reason won't lead you to it. You can't do it that way.
Jesus practiced medicine without medicine. Now think of this one. He was traveling along the road and somebody came and told Him there was a sick man in the house and he wanted Him to cure him. How did He do it? Well, there were a lot of hogs out in the front yard and He drove the devils out of a man and cured him, but He drove them into the hogs and they jumped into the sea. Is that a myth or is it true?
If that is true, if you have got to believe that story in order to have your soul saved, you are bound to get rid of your intelligence to save the soul that perhaps doesn't exist at all. You can't believe a thing just because you want to believe it and you can't believe it on very poor evidence, You may believe it because your grandfather told you it was true, but you have got to have some such details.
Did He raise a dead man to life? Why, tens of thousands of dead men and women have been raised to life according to all the stories and all the traditions. Was this the only case? All Europe is filled with miracles of that sort, the Catholic church performing miracles almost to the present time. Does anybody believe it if they use their senses? I say, No. It is impossible to believe it if you use your senses.
Now take the soul. People in this world instinctively like to keep on living. They want to meet their friends again, and all of that. They cling to life. Schopenhauer called it the will to live. I call it the momentum of a going machine. Anything that is going keeps on going for a certain length of time. It is all momentum. What evidence is there that we are alive after we are dead?
How many believe it? And yet that is the only idea of immortality that there is, and it is in every creed today, I believe. -
Dansk
Great post Greatteacher
This is something that's always annoyed me:
And Eve and all of her daughters to the end of time were condemned to bring forth children in pain and agony. Lovely God,isn't it? Lovely?
That's like saying because a man insults me I should hit his son, then his son and his son and so on.....................
Women die in childbirth for goodness sake. I attended three of my wife's four deliveries - let's just say I'm glad I was born a man!
As someone said earlier, there ARE some good things to be emulated in the Bible - just as there are in countless other religious books.
1 Corinthians 13:5 tells us we're not to keep account of the injury. Someone should have told God!
Dansk
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Leolaia
The Bible is a selection of the national literature of the ancient nations of Israel and Judah, supplemented with a selection of the literature of the early Christian church. It is a library (Gk. biblia), not a single book, and thus presents many different points of view. As a library, it contains history, law, poetry, wisdom, religious tracts, and yes, fiction. But it is only a selection of the literature. The library of Qumran included their own sectarian writings, as well as other apocryphal and pseudepigraphal texts. The Septuagint included the Greek apocrapha. There were many other pseudepigraphal works that never made it into the Bible (like Daniel did) that are valuable for shedding light on NT doctrines. There were many other early Christian works that never made it into the New Testment as well. The question of divine inspiration raised by 2 Timothy 3:16 is an interesting one. What counts as "scripture"? The "Bible" that the Paulinist used, the Septuagint, would have included what the Protestant church today rejects as the Apocrypha. Why reject it if "the Bible" itself regards it as inspired? Another problem is raised by the extensive use of the pseudepigrapha by the Epistle of Jude. If 1 Enoch is to be rejected as a spurious work, why did Jude believe it as recording the authentic words of Enoch? And why did the 2nd-century 2 Peter make it into the NT (a clear instance of a pseudenymous work) but the genuine first-century Epistle of Clement did not (which was regarded as "scripture" in some churches)? The boundaries of what counted as scripture are man-made and, during the period when "the Bible" was being written, not fixed. It is also quite biased. Why does the NT overwhelmingly preserve the work of the Gentile church, while the Jewish-Christian church (who were the real intellectual and religious heirs of Jesus) is represented only by the Epistle of James and whatever remains of the Sayings Gospel Q? I would say that there is inspiration in the Bible (inspiration in a looser sense, not as God-authored), but it is not limited to what we today call the Bible, and there can be much in the Bible that is not inspired as well. And I view it a completely modern conceit to claim that the Bible, as a remnant of the national literature of Israel and Judah, must not contain any fiction and must be completely literally true and must have been perfectly preserved. That viewpoint is not warranted by the facts.
Leolaia
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bebu
If that story was necessary to keep me out of hell and put me in heaven -- necessary for my life -- I wouldn't believe it because I couldn't believe it.
Fortunately, it really isn't necessary. So don't worry about it.And Eve and all of her daughters to the end of time were condemned to bring forth children in pain and agony. Lovely God,isn't it? Lovely?
In the story, Adam (and Eve) already were warned that eating the fruit would bring death--though it's uncertain that they could really grasp what death entailed. By the end of the Bible, humanity does not need to fear death at all, but the reminder of death's severity is still given at the birth of each child. It gives me pause.
...I suppose it's extremely difficult for husbands to observe the labor of their wives (the husbands occasionally need a sedative!), so it's not always a private suffering, really. A husband feels helpless as he sees new life come in with pain and even danger--and perhaps desperately desires to carry that pain himself. Perhaps being so helpless is his extra burden, and reminds him of his being impotent before God.
At any rate, even believing these stories literally/figuratively is not something 'required' to save your life. Some things are bread and wine, and somethings are condiments. I don't eat mayo or mustard by themselves, but I don't need to use them either. The bread is not OT stories, actually; it is Jesus who is the bread and wine. I've tasted him; I want more!
franklin j, I don't take offense. Honest doubt has been shown a much shorter path to God than an undisturbed, pretended faith. Sorry if I'm offending anyone here, as well.
bebu
bebu
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Dansk
Bebu
but the reminder of death's severity is still given at the birth of each child.
Death is the last thing on my mind when I witness the birth of a child.
Ian