Born Again?

by IT Support 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    JT... I have a great deal of respect for you based on your posts, but I think you're being extremely unfair here. Personally, I agree with you about the logical inconsistencies in Christianity, which is why I personally am not a Christian. But in this case, since Greenpalmtrees is not trying to push her viewpoint on anyone else, what justification do you have for attacking it?

    If she came out and said that only Christians are saved, you would attack her as intolerant. Since she believes that non-Christians are also saved, you attack her as untrue to her own beilefs. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. The only conclusion you would accept, apparently, is if she abandoned her belief system and adopted yours instead.

    Before you go accusing anyone else of intolerance, perhaps you should examine yourself.

    (BTW, Greenpalmtrees... you have a PM)

  • seven006
    seven006

    Sabrina,

    Don't take what JT said in such a defensive manner. We all exited the same cult and a lot of us are a bit sensitive. I find alternative Christian concepts interesting. I don't by into them for a second but I do like alternative concepts. I find the gospel of John as well as the infancy gospel of Thomas, and gospels of Phillip, Andrew, Mary Magdelene, Nichodemus, and others interesting. Feminist Women's groups would have loved to have the gospel of Mary Magdelene slipped into the bible, that is a real male ego butser in itself.

    I think if the full discoveries at Nagamati were disclose, or JW's came close to understand concepts such as "Q" and it's relationship to the canonized gospel it would shake their little worlds. Now that alone would crack me up. The fact that the infancy gospels say Jesus was a nasty little boy and did bad boy things as a kid gives another perspective on the myth and is quite entertaining. I think in the light of all that information the decedents of the Gnostics as well as a few Greek decedents of Socrates should sue!

    Again, I don't buy any of it from Adam and Eve and the talking snake all the way up to additional concepts of Revelations, but I do find it interesting in the whole spectrum of religious philosophy. Most JW's don't have a clue that Jesus is even talked about in the Koran or is a character in the Muslim religion. Personally I'm a fan of the Upanishads when it comes to poetic spiritual mumbo jumbo, but I like gods with a nice figure and multiple arms. I'm kind of sick that way.

    If you made a post in the manner of alternative belief without making it preachy I think you may get some interest and constructive responses. JT is a great guy and a friend of mine. He has lived in the bowels of Bethel so he's bit sensitive when it comes to Christian stuff.

    Give it another shot without trying to preach or persuade but only to inform and I don't think you will get the response you did. I am not saying you tried to preach but given the amount of god products that some have tried to sell here you might understand the quick draw with the six shooters.

    Take care and have a nice holiday.

    Dave

  • IT Support
    IT Support

    Thanks, Big Tex.

    Best wishes,

    Ken

  • IT Support
    IT Support

    Mouthy:

    Yep! I was baptised again after Oct 20th 1989 When I was born again... No joke! But my daughters who were raised as JW - did not -they said they knew who Jesus was. I didnt ,,,I thoought he was micheal the Ark Angel....

    Thanks, may I ask you, are all Christians 'born again'? Does that necessarily mean being filled with holy spirit and speaking in tongues, etc?

    The reason I am confused is that I've heard some 'Christians' seem to speak disparagingly of those who are 'born agains,' dismissing them all as if they're just an evangelical sect of Christianity...

    Is it possible to be 'born again' (as Jesus indicated in John 3) without all the 'speaking in tongues' and 'praise the Lord' bit, which, to be honest, I find rather off-puting?

    Or is this just my JW prejudices here?!!

    Thanks,

    Ken

  • JT
    JT
    You have no idea what I believe yet you proceed to not only demean my unstated beliefs

    So I agree with you that God will not destroy people simply because they are not born again Christians or because they are not Christians at all

    but also to speak about me in the third person

    .

    The reason I addressed you in third person and not directly is because my post was not directly meant to be toward you,--- but the "View" that was expressed, it could have been John, Adam or Sue who stated what you did,

    and it would not have change the issue I raised and that is ?

    an honest examination of the bible clearly shows that the bible does not Allow for any other Options- MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY is really the HARD COLD LINE THE BIBLE TAKES

    I merely pointed out that your stated view (and it is shared by others I have spoken with) ? in my opinion tries to ?Soften? what the bible actually teaches about those who don?t accept it as the divine will of god an esp the comment made that one MUST BE BORN AGAIN

    I work for the Dept of Homeland Security and when we go to high alert like we are now and they say

    ONE MUST HAVE THERE ID BADGE ON it means exactly that in order to get into this place

    the book known as the bible makes the statement NOT ME --i was merely quoting it and what you said and the two are not the same

    the bible says you gotta be BA , you say You don't, now which is it???

    as i mentioned --I realized exactly how it sounds to tell a wonderful next door neighbor who looks in on the old and sick- does things for the community , ETC that- "JUST CAUSE YOU AIN'T BORN AGAIN, YOU GOT TO DIE BILLY BOB"

    the bible puts belivers like yourself in a catch 22 i agree and that is the whole point, it should tell us that we need to rethink this thing again, how much sense does that make-

    I have seen folks tell jw that they believe that 6 billions folks will die,

    yet many "Believers" also believe that some 5 billion NON- CHRISTIANS LIVEs ARE ON THE LINE AS WELL SINCE they are not BORN AGAIN AS THE BIBLE TEACHES-

    after awhile a Billion here and a Billion there and we are talking about a few lives I guess

    The view you stated in my opinion is much like when a jw is asked

    " WILL ONLY JW SURVIVE"- well a good PC JW knows better than to say ?Yes? instead they give some weak off the cuff answer about who will survive- god reading hearts etc, when in fact any good read of wt literature paints a different story-

    And in my exp that is what I have often seen with "Believers" who state that one doesn?t have to be a Christian or Born Again or a follower of the bible------ that view ?Ain?t? supported by their own bible

    That was why I asked the question:

    I would like for to know how many ?Believers? accept this position? that one doesn't have to be a Christian, that being the case then a Muslium, Buddist or Hindu is on the same level as a christian-

    And I am waiting to see how many folks who consider themselves ?Born Again? agree with your position

    If I have offended you in some way then please accept my apologies.

    No offense taken at all

    I am not here to argue

    Niether am I ? I merely pointed out your inconsistent view based on what your Bible teachs- if you can so kindly point out to me that your bible teaches OTHERWISE I am sure others like myself who often been refered to as "SWINE"-- for not accepting the words of the bible-----

    would be more than glad to read those biblical text- based on my research I have not seen it as of yet, but if you know where I can find it by all means point it out to me

    in fact that was one of things that caused me to hesitate posting here in the first place.

    I can understand your position, it is the same one my wife takes

    If you had asked me why I said what I did I would have been more than happy to answer.

    Well I now give you that opportunity to show me from your bible that one doesn?t have to follow it and still be ?OK?

    It seems though you have your own beliefs as to what my beliefs are so there is no point in discussing it is there?

    As stated before I merely QUOTED what you said you believed and pointed out how it was not consisitence with what the bible states, If I have offended you by pointing that out to you then accept my apologies

    i merely believe in cutting to the chase and just deal with the dogma facts, i ain't much into personalities, but if one states a position then they need to be able to back it up in my personal view

    I hope you had a good Christmas.
    likewise
  • JT
    JT

    REPOST - MY comments did not show up

    #################

    You have no idea what I believe yet you proceed to not only demean my unstated beliefs

    Sabrina- I love you to death, but --According to your own words and I quote:

    So I agree with you that God will not destroy people simply because they are not born again Christians or because they are not Christians at all

    If the above is not your ?Stated? belief by all means please correct me

    but also to speak about me in the third person

    .

    The reason I addressed you in third person and not directly is because my post was not directly meant to be toward you,--- but the "View" that was expressed, it could have been John, Adam or Sue who stated what you did,

    and it would not have change the issue I raised and that is ?

    an honest examination of the bible clearly shows that the bible does not Allow for any other Options- MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY is really the HARD COLD LINE THE BIBLE TAKES

  • JT
    JT
    . Personally, I agree with you about the logical inconsistencies in Christianity,

    and that was MY ONLY POINT- SMILE

    But in this case, since Greenpalmtrees is not trying to push her viewpoint on anyone else, what justification do you have for attacking it?

    When I first read this line you typed above - I wanted to laugh,

    I asked myself, Where Have I heard this before-

    that when a person merely points out the inconsistenies in a person belief system they are then ATTACKING THAT PERSON'

    and i said, it was in WT, for we all know that to point out the inconsistenies to a jw is going to be viewed as attacking them

    whether she was "pushig" her views or not ----don't change the FACT that it is inconsistent. and I merely pointed that out

    If she came out and said that only Christians are saved, you would attack her as intolerant.

    I see you just love that word "Attack"

    Why, I don't know, since the bible is "Intolerant" of those who don't follow it-

    I mean to tell someone that they will die cause they don't share your belief system sounds pretty Intolerant to me, just ask all those nations the Isrealites wiped out-

    I am just merely pointing out what the bible says I didn't make that up - don't blame me for telling folks

    "IF YOU AIN'T SAVE YOU TOAST"

    Since she believes that non-Christians are also saved, you attack her as untrue to her own beilefs.

    Again we see the word "Attack" used -

    Let me ask you -- If a JW comes to this site and you point out to him that the FDS teaches that they should not be hanging out with Apostates -

    Are you attacking him??-- or merely pointing out what his OWN belief system teaches and how he or she is not consistent with it?

    Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

    You are 110% correct-- AND THAT IS what happens when one follows a belief system that condemns others to death for not sharing thier views

    as you pointed out so well-- in your opening statement -and I quote

    Personally, I agree with you about the logical inconsistencies in Christianity, which is why I personally am not a Christian due to the inconsistencies

    Well my question to you is

    "Is it possible that she doesn't realize just how Inconsist her views are?"

    ask any of us who were jw did we think out views were- many of us would have died for them-

    the wt is NOT THE ONLY belief system that has goofy and inconsistent veiws and teaching on matters

    so for me to merely point them out and it be viewed as ATTACKING A PERSON--- i disagree

    but hey-- no one can get DFed for disagreeing here

    The only conclusion you would accept, apparently, is if she abandoned her belief system and adopted yours instead.

    Actually not, I don't know about you , but I don't feel that you or I need "Acceptance" from anyone,

    she doesn't need my acceptance any more than you or I need it of each other--that is an old WT mindset, WHAT WILL THE FRIENDS THINK-

    Before you go accusing anyone else of intolerance,

    your comments are interesting- for you state that i am accusing her of being "Intolerant"

    which if anyone goes back and read my post will find that I NEVER accused her of being such-

    while in fact--

    her comments are "VERY TOLERANT", they are just inconsistent with the bible which "IS INTOLERANT"

    thereby putting a person like her in a --catch 22--

    You see i indicated i was dealing with the BOTTON LINE WHICH IS

    "I you don't do it this way over here -you die"

    perhaps you should examine yourself.

    Since I didn't accuse her of being "Intolerant" as you stated - What are you talking about?"

    are you saying by pointing out these things I am being Intolerant??

  • JT
    JT
    Don't take what JT said in such a defensive manner

    hey man

    i just pointed out what the lady said and what her bible says- they are not exactly the same

    and for pointing that out --folks Jaws Got Locked-

    hey you got to love it

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Jt

    Palmtrees claims to be a johanine christian. Hey, there are all kinds of christians, about as many as there are ice cream flavors. Anyway, to my way of thinking, she may not accept stuff outside of the john gospel, if it contradicts it. Maybe that gospel should be the basis of discussion w her.

    Just a thought. Carry on slicing and dicing.

    SS

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    If you do enough research from non-biased scholarship you will see that the evangelical notion of being "born again" is not really Biblical. The correct translation in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is not "born again" but "born from above." Check it out.

    Bradley

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