Born Again?

by IT Support 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

mustang

Several things here, perhaps with a different twist on the view:
I was "raised in the Truth(tm)". So, I have all this "overhead/"baggage" by way of belief. So, I had a real hard time with this perception that JW's DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST!!! Huh??? I was there and this is ???-able. JW's are taught the Ransom Sacrifice, just like any of the rest of Christians. Well, it seems it is applied a little differently...
OK, so I gradually come to the realization that Jesus takes a real back seat in the JW hierarchy. And a hierarchy it is: POLITIX to the max.
I saw as much POLITIX growing up in the Borg as I saw spiritual life. I was raised by a "lifer"/zealot who "moved where the need was great" and started a congregation; I was a pIONEER, sERVANT, picked up for questioning by the Police several times and managed to get the personal "evil eye" from N.H. Knorr.
I left on my own steam, being not very convinced that one really needed to follow all this for salvation. It is most likely a "take it or leave it" proposition, but the JW political reality is that if you make waves, you will get clobbered. Speaking out against the "party line" is POLITICAL SUICIDE in the JW's, but this is interpreted as SPIRITUAL SUICIDE.
So, the JW's are a modern day inheritor of the role of the Middle Ages Puritans of English and North American fame. The uniform is slightly more varied, but there you have it.
Clergy-Laity Distinction? Ya gotta preach, OR ELSE. I echo JT's thought: the BELIEF SYSTEM WILL KILL YOU. It is required (the Belief System and the Preaching, both).
Then there is the Baptism. In discussing all this with my fleshly brother, he mentioned that the Baptism Vows we ORIGINALLY took are "little or NO DIFFERENT from those of any number of Protestant Churches!!!!" I looked them over and, yes, indeed that is true!!!
Review them yourself: Jesus is accepted, the need for the Ransom Sacrifice is indicated and Jehovah is added to the usual list. (NOTE: these are the vows BEFORE the changes of 1982-85, where Jesus is really given the back-seat and the ORGANIZATION comes to the fore.)
So, my Baptism could be carried onto any other Protestant Church, with little hesitation. I've never bothered to do this. I see no need.
But, I left before the change of Baptismal Vows, so I DID NOT RATIFY THAT CHANGE. The new JW Baptismal Vows of the early 80's are quite different. They require "pledging allegiance" to the WTBTS. I haven't done that, either.
I never answered ~80 or ~200 questions to get to the Baptismal pool, either. If I were to be considered a JW, I would be one of a breed that no longer exists.
My, but all this is most legalistic, don't you think? Well, I am whatever it is that I am. So is anyone else. Anybody who wants to ask any individual any legalistic, political-like, disguised as religious question should have a visible "act of God" and a Court Order to compel any such interrogation.
I view with amusement the "over the top" activities of the zealots who have to have someone SHOUTING that "I've been Born Again". There is no need for such "public displays" which are quite possibly among those condemned by the scriptures as being Pharisaical in nature.
And these displays arrogantly assume, without any reason or real knowledge, that all but the one shouting "Born Again" are condemned. These people do not deserve an answer, either.
Neither the showy, outward display of the JW's nor the pushy behavior of other Fundamentalists seem to be really required for salvation. A quiet nature, humble and more Christ-like, is more appropriate and proper beliefs are what is necessary.
I believe in Christ, the Ransom Sacrifice and such; but I don't believe "Born Again" has ever been properly explained and UNEQUIVOCALLY DEFINED, to the satisfaction of myself or any other human individual, living or dead. Therefore, I will answer this on JUDGMENT DAY, to the one with the authority to ask it!!!
Mustang
seven006

JT,
Ya, stuff like this always brings a smile to my face. I was just looking at her comment about her sect of christianity, in that context she is making her comments based on untraditional christian concepts so her comments make sense in that light. It's an alternative concept developed by other old myth writings that didn't seem to fit into the complete cannon in time for Constantine to get his fifty official bibles written on time and within budget.
I still see what ever it say as completely nullified by the first line of nonsense about talking snakes and naked ladies. But, it's fun to read about. According to some of the writings the infancy gospel of Thomas, Jesus was quite the little son of a bitch little kid when he was around five years old. That didn't make it into what is now known as the bible. Go figure.
The Gnostic concept of good old jesus is different from the commonly accepted bible writings but is just as suspect in it's origin and authorship as the rest of the fairy tail. The Gnostic concept is a bit more halcyon in it's take on good old jesus but it's still basically the same old thing with a nice vanilla frosting on top. I can see where she is coming from and I can also see where you are coming from.
You know me pal. I'm with you on this one. I just thought it would be interesting for others to hear about the banished books. I don't give a rip about all that stuff so I don't post about it. It's still interesting to read about.
Take care JT, it's always great when you pop up and post. You're one of the sharpest guys on the board.
Take care and give the wife a hug for me.
Your pal,
Dave
Big Tex

The History Channel had an interesting program on the banned books of the Bible. Personally I found very interesting, but then I had not really heard much about them or about how the books were culled together for Constantine. I thought the back story behind some of the books, particularly the Gospel of Mary was really very interesting.
But I'm a bear of very little brain so what do I know?
Euphemism

JT:
What makes your post an "attack" is not its intellectual content; it is its tone and manner.
You wrote:
what this poster fails to realize is that by taking this is that the poster has made the blood of jesus have no more value than that of some Hindu god
Don't you realize how insulting it is to say that to a Christian?
And again, you wrote:
and my friend that is the bottom line of your belief system, i apppreciate you trying to change the window dressing, but you can't just calling a spade a spade
Here you claimed to tell her what the bottom line of her belief system was. How disrespectful is that?
The fact is, if all you wanted to do was point out to her that you felt that her belief system was inconsistent, you could have said something like:
"I notice that there are scriptures (like John 3:18 or 2 Thess 1:8) that say that only Christians will be saved. So how do you reconcile those scriptures with your idea that religion doesn't matter?"
IMHO that would have been far kinder--and also far more effective--than the rant that you posted.
seven006

Chris,
If you keep saying you're not all that smart I'm going to ask your wife to smack you upside your head again. I'm not buying it for a second.
Just cuz you live in same state as Valis doesn't mean your dumb. I can see the connection but it's not a valid conclusion.
BTW, did you finish that organic pot Valis gave you? It's a bit trick isn't it? That will teach you to smoke something a guy with a tarantula growing out of his head give you!
Dave
IT Support

Hi Euphemism,
Ken... I'm not a Christian. Ray Franz is one, however, and I thought his take on this subject was interesting.

Frankly, my confusion is, I think, partly caused by what Ray wrote. He said:
Some persons speak of ?becoming Christians? and ?accepting Christ? after leaving Jehovah?s Witnesses. That may perhaps be true in their case. In my own case it was precisely because of being a Christian and of having accepted Christ as my God-appointed Head and Master that I took the course I did. My separation from the Watch Tower organisation did not result in my accepting Christ, but resulted from my having accepted Him many decades earlier. In Search of Christian Freedom, page 703

I'm not sure if this is the same passage as you had in mind. I have huge respect for Ray and what he has done and written, but I felt he rather fudged the issue here, which is part of my confusion.
So far as I remember, this is his only comment on being "born again" and I felt he dodged the question of whether the rest of us need to be "born again" by purely referring to his own situation, which is not very helpful, because he always felt he was of the anointed and thus had no 'changes' to make. (If you know what I mean!)
As for anyone else, he says it "may perhaps be true in their case," if they have "accepted Christ." I'm sorry, but I found that rather dismissive.
In my own situation, much as I think I would like to be a "Christian" (I say "think" because I'm taking this opportunity to review everything I previously believed, including the accuracy and sanctity of the Bible), I find that no matter how much I pray to God and ask for his help to really get to know him, I still feel empty inside. I feel very envious of those who feel they have a 'knowing' relationship with God and Christ.
I realise that's probably my fault, but it's why I'm asking all these--probably stupid--questions...
Regards,
Ken
IT Support

Hi Sabrina,
As for your question whether it's possible to be a Christian without being born again, this I cannot say for others but for myself anyone who loves Jehovah and the Christ is a Christian regardless if they feel they are born again or not. But that's just my opinion.

Frankly, that's how I presently feel, but I'm just not sure whether I'm missing out on something...!
Nice to meet you too.
Regards,
Ken
IT Support

Hi JT,
the bible teaches and its followers accept that if you don't have the classification of Born Again, God is going to Kill you- so with that as your option is it any wonder that believers speak in terms of how much they love their Heavenly father-
You may be right, but that's what I'm trying to find out. On the other hand, could it be that our understanding of what it actually means to be 'born again' is not correct? Maybe Jesus had something completely different in mind to what we think of today?
for some reason i just don't believe that most fathers would not Kill their kids just because they don't share their views on issues-

Neither do I.
just think about this, you can be kind, loving, generous, good natured, friendly,not curse, not smoke, pay your taxes on time, feed the poor, provide shelter for the homeless, be a loving father, husband, wife or mother, and yet in the eyes of a "believer" their god views you no better than Hitler or a person who lies, cheats, steals and murders for a living yep you are Dirt if you don't do it the way we say do it-

I'm not sure whether God would view a 'good' non-believer in exactly the same light, and subject to the same condemnation, as an 'evil' non-believer. I don't think I agree with you here. Isn't that what the Day of Judgment is supposed to be for, to separate the sheep from the goats? Jesus didn't say a favourable judgment would be based on whether or not one was 'born again,' but on each person's charitable works...
you got to LOVE BELIEF SYSTEMS that use DEATH IN THE BACKGROUND TO KEEP YOU IN LINE

But then didn't Jesus purely emphasise love for God, self and neighbour? Regards, Ken PS: I've a feeling I haven't replied to your last IM: if not, I'll email you instead.
Satanus

IT
I find that no matter how much I pray to God and ask for his help to really get to know him, I still feel empty inside. I feel very envious of those who feel they have a 'knowing' relationship with God and Christ.

Emptiness seems to be the nature of some spirituality, so don't feel like you're missing a lot. I had some spiritual experiences, some in the christian context, and in a church, some outside of both. Unless you are specially gifted, you need an altered mind state to explore this area. Chanting, singing (like in a pentacostal church), or a slightly longer process, meditation gets some people there. Drugs can also help, but they are two edged, so go w the former.
As you are doing your chanting, or whatever, keep your mind focused on your objective (god), but be flexible. These are very rudimentary instructions, but they give you some idea. You could research mysticism and meditation on the net to get more ideas.
BTW, watch out for aguest and her ranting. She hears voices and stuff, but is somewhat confused.
SS
Ps, eckhart tolle recommends a meditation that is focused on emptiness. It could be the emptiness in a room, the sky, or space. He claims that 'god' is in the emptiness, and so focusing on it could put on in touch. I haven't tried this, but it sounds workable and harmless.
IT Support

JT,
This is the very reason why belief system are all the same- they all follow the same line of reasoning

"Fail to worship my god the way he says and you die"

Surely, it would be acceptable if that was what they said. The problem occurs when they say,
"Fail to worship my god the way we say or you die."
Regards,
Ken

Born Again?

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