astrology and the bible (page 3)

LittleToe

ThiChi:I am aware of that position, however, if you have that information to hand I'd be more than happy to read it

Love the new range of Avatar's, btw.

ThiChi

Here is a start:

Cumont, Franz. Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans. New York: Dover Publications, Inc, 1960.

LittleToe

It's your profile pic.
Unless I'm much mistaken I notice a Templar theme emerging, over the last few

Thanks for the ref.

Narkissos

ThiChi: agreed on (and thanks for) your Augustinian exposition.

But my question was slightly different. I can cut it asunder:

1) how is "free will" a "Christian belief" at all? Regarding salvation, notwithstanding the different interpretations of this word, I guess neither Paul nor John nor Luke (nor Augustine!) would relate it to any "free will".

2) could any "free will" doctrine at that time be opposed to astrology? The general question of cosmic order, which is very important in stoicism on the Greek side, in Essene or wider apocalyptics on the Jewish side, seems to include astrology more than deny it (so with the stars "judaicized" as angels in Henoch or Revelation).

My guess is that the common opposition of free will and astrology requires the modern understanding of freedom, which is not the same as the ancient concept, and is not to be equated with Christianity (although Christianity may have had a part in the development of the new concept).

ThiChi

Hehe, yea........you are right....

ThiChi

Really good questions.....

I only argue from a Christian historical perspective. I was only addressing the claim that Revelation is somehow tied to Astrology. My current viewpoint is that it does not seem compatible with the Christian/Jewish belief of the time. However, the authenticity of the Book of Revelation has been a topic of debate for some time......

The Free Will aspect of Christian thought (in most circles) explains away Adam?s Fall, Satan, Judas, justification of Hell, and the Good News or preaching work (why preach if it is already predetermined?)...... Determinism is in direct conflict with many aspects of the Christian belief

LittleToe

You don't think Judas was pre-chosen as the son of perdition, according to the biblical account?

Narkissos

1. Just some further elements on free will vs. divine predestination (not to hijack the thread any longer) :

a) in Paul, the most explicit text (heavily drawn upon by Augustine and Calvin) is certainly Romans 9:10ff: Nor is that all; something similar happened to Rebecca when she had conceived children by one husband, our ancestor Isaac. Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) she was told, "The elder shall serve the younger." As it is written, "I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau." What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. You will say to me then, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

b) in John, a search on the verb "give" will... give the best results (especially in chapters 6 and 17). The "saved ones" are "given" by the Father to the Son, they cannot come to him unless it is "given to them". In 17:12 Judas is alluded to: "I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled."

c) in Luke, the predestination doctrine is not quite as consistent, but you can find typical expressions such as Acts 13:48: "as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers".

d) in Mark and Matthew, at least the explanation of parables have the same implication, e.g. Mark 4:11f: "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."

e) There is a definite opposition to this common trend (as to Paul's general views) in the epistle of James, for instance in 1:13ff: No one, when tempted, should say, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. Or 4:7f: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

2) As for the relation of the common cosmology (including astrology) to the Christian doctrine, one of the best attempts IMO is to be found in Colossians (especially 1:15ff), where the supernatural heavenly powers are not denied but subjected to Christ. Christians are, in him, in relation to the upper strata of heaven, and so they do not need to fear anymore the lower strata (including astral powers). Which is not the same as denying the reality of astral powers (as Western modernity does).

ThiChi

LT:

Well, using Augustine?s reasoning, if Judas was predestined, then he could not be held morally accountable for his actions.....this may be a case of selective foreknowledge on God?s part...what do you think....

astrology and the bible

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