by _Morpheus 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The WT lays a guilt trip on anyone who would report such a crime by a JW to the police.
Why?
Because it makes the organization look bad.
It doesn't seem to bother the WT hierarchy that JWs are actually committing such horrendous crimes.
It's that victims are turning them in and destroying the illusion the GB is trying to create that they head up Jehovah's "clean" and "happy" organization.
They are far more concerned about the image than the reality.
Morpheus.
You say, just report to the police. Yes, everyone should, but often it's not that easy.
You are often bullied into NOT reporting it to the police. Sometimes people are threatened. Read all the child abuse accounts or listen or them on YouTube. How many didn't report it because they were put under extreme pressure not to? How many were threatened by the elders?
In my case, the crime happened in a different country to where I now live and it happened many years ago so I couldn't go to the police. I've battled with the damage it did to me for decades and when finally I spoke out I was treated so badly by the elders in my congregation...it was shocking how badly I was treated.
Clearly they contacted the branch and being as my abuser is an elder and former temp C.O. with lots of friends in the right places I was told by the elders 'Your word against his. Nothing we can do.' Two witness rule.
They didn't want to know. I was ignored. After summoning up the courage to finally speak out I was brushed aside as if I was a waste of their time. It was like being abused all over again.
Yes, you are right. Report to the people. Definitely. But spare some compassion for people who just are not able to do that.
That's why they need to change it. That's why people protest.
The two witness rule does matter in that it gets to how serious they view a thing but ultimately if they'd just say "this is a possible crime, we should have the police investigate" then the two witness rule wouldn't matter. I think it matters, but I think it's become the focus of many and really it's not the answer. They will hold to their "scriptural teaching" on the number of witnesses but regardless of what they do internally there needs to be external involvement as well. Nobody is going to change their internal policies but external forces can hold them accountable and enact mandatory reporting with penalties for failure to do so.
So it all matters, just at different levels.
What Cofty said.
The two issues are interwoven. The control that the GB/Legal team exert over congregants is what keeps the majority of Elders from calling the police and it keeps the R&F in fear of bringing reproach on “Jehovah.”
The “Two Witness” rule makes adult humans question whether or not they should immediately protect children. A policy that dangerous should never be defended or ignored.
DD 🤔
truthbknwn: All the Two Witness Rule does is prevent pedophiles who are Witnesses from being disfellowshipped.
It actually does far more than that.
The two witness rule negates the victim's experience. It stands in the way of the victim being affirmed.
This isn't just simply something that stands in the way of the sexual crime being reported to police (because, as we know, even that doesn't always end in justice) or something that prevents the predator from being disfellowshipped. In order for a victim to attain healing and regain their self esteem, confirmation of the crime is essential, regardless of the litmus test of banishment.
I don't know why people think that disfellowshipping is the be all and end all of justice. It isn't. It is a kangaroo decision that has nothing at all to do with real justice or real law. Just disfellowshipping somebody is meaningless.
What is essential, though, is that the victim is believed and supported. Without a second witness, the org is telling victims that their experience didn't happen even when it did. The victim never gets a chance to heal.
The two witness rule may not matter to some people, but it certainly does matter to children who are desperate to be believed.
Frankly in most cases it's the parent(s) fault for not reporting an incident to the police. As a parent if my child told me she was molested by brother ___ I would simultaneously call the elders and police. It would be pretty much a non issue if these brain washed brain dead parents had done this. I know it sounds simple but that's why I don't know why it's more convoluted and complicated than it has to be.
The ‘two witness rule’ and the resistance to reporting credible allegations to the authorities go hand-in-hand.
i disagree. In no way do i want jw elders deciding if an allegation is “credible”. Its not their job and they are not qualified to decide. Report. It. All.
Currently the organisations starts from a position of protecting its reputation at all costs — don’t bring reproach on Jehovah’s name. When a victim reports abuse, the assumption is that without collaboration nothing can or should be done. There will be no further investigation by the elders and they definitely will not be taking it outside the organisation. The victim and/or victim’s parents will be left in no doubt that they are expected to ‘leave it in Jehovah’s hands’.
your still emphasizing the religion and its roll. It doesn't matter. Its just a religion. Leave law enforcement to law enforcement and let the religion do whatever it does. Never shall the two meet.
What needs to change first is attitude. Correct procedure will follow from that.
and the correct attitude is report crimes to law enforcement. I give zero damns what the religion does or does not do with its members. It just doesnt matter.
The reputation of the organisation needs to take second place to child welfare.
Thats my point.
If that was the case then there would be an eagerness to get to the truth of any report of abuse.
The “truth” by jw standards is irrelevant. It doesnt count for anything. Even if someone is df’d that is no form of justice. So the fu**k what. It doesnt protect any one else and it doesnt punish wrong doers.
That would involve reporting it to the authorities — or supporting the victim and/or parents to do so — and investigating the matter internally to the extent that can be done without prejudicing an official investigation.
I have no idea why you care if an internal jw investigation is done with or without prejudicing. Who. Cares.
Truth be known- Jehovah's Witnesses could end the practice and belief of the "Two Witness Rule" and still stick to their guns on not reporting to the police. All the Two Witness Rule does is prevent pedophiles who are Witnesses from being disfellowshipped.
exactly. Focus on the real problem and the real solution. Dont discourage or dissuade members from reporting abuse as was very prevalent in years gone by. Let all abuse be reported, encourage all abuse to be reported, and let it get sorted it properly. What the organization of jw’s does internally be damned. Its irrelevant to law enforcemnt or real life.
@dub- I think it matters, but I think it's become the focus of many and really it's not the answer. They will hold to their "scriptural teaching" on the number of witnesses but regardless of what they do internally there needs to be external involvement as well. Nobody is going to change their internal policies but external forces can hold them accountable and enact mandatory reporting with penalties for failure to do so.
i understand that some may feel im playing devils advocate but largely what i quoted from you is my point. Change the rule or not, it doesnt fix whats wrong and all the focus on the religious rule (two witnesses) is irrelevant to law enforcement and real justice.
Frankly in most cases it's the parent(s) fault for not reporting an incident to the police. As a parent if my child told me she was molested by brother ___ I would simultaneously call the elders and police. It would be pretty much a non issue if these brain washed brain dead parents had done this. I know it sounds simple but that's why I don't know why it's more convoluted and complicated than it has to be.
Again, i agree. The tragedy is that most dubs wouldnt call the police even if brother or sister blank was df’d for child abuse because they would ‘leave it in the desert gods hands’ after the person was df’d. They would feel real justice would come at the big A.
Report it all. They are not law enforcement. They are not judges. They are just a religion.
I'm starting to think that the two-witness rule is turning into the WT's Achilles' Heel.
Every time they're called out on it, the Org digs in even further, which - in the long - run - can't help but hurt them more and more, if the Rising Tide is any indication.
Morpheus,
while I get what you are saying, I believe that you are missing one important point. In that, your view is that of a person who sees the religion as it really is ... but the people (and their children) at risk do not. They believe that it is 'the' one true faith and as such follow the rules of that faith, which includes viewing the Elders as judges. The rank and file Jehovah's Witness can only see things through that lens.
For that reason, its only by external pressure or exposure that the danger of sexual child abuse can be lessened, as the Organization is clearly unwilling to revise their own policies.
An before you bite me head off, I also understand the big difference between dissdelowshiping someone and justice, particularity in regard to this problem ... however if the goal is to purely reduces (and hopefully stop) child sexual abuse within this religion, then any action to that end, which includes the removal of the two witness rule ... is worth the effort.
