Some examples of "Christian" Trinity triangles:
The Trinity in the Old Testament
by hooberus 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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hooberus
herk, Trinitarians belive in only one God. It is a monotheistic (one God) doctrine, teaching only one true God, who alone is worthy of worship. "One God in three persons." It does not teach that there is more than one God. Trititarians believe that YHWH is the only God and that he is unique and that He alone is the creator.
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Sargon
When Queen Victoria said "We are not amused!":
Did that make her a trinity too?
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hooberus
Genesis 1:26
Do you conclude that the "us make" is referring to God and angels (indicating a plurality of separate beings being involved in the making of man)?
If so, is there any place in the Bible which shows that angels had a part in the making of man?
Why does not Genesis 1:26; 1:27; 5:1; or any verse in the Bible refer to created angels being involved in the making of man?
Genesis 3:22
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.Genesis 3:22 does not mention any other beings beside God (this is not to say that they may not possibly have been present, but none besides God are spoken of). Verse 22 does not say that God said anything to created angels. The fact that two verses later Cherubims were placed as guards does not provide a positive indication that God was speaking to them also in verse 22, let alone for saying that created angels were also being spoken of in Gensis 1:26
Genesis 11:7
"And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:6-7
"So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city." Genesis 11:8
"Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth." Gensis 11:9
Note the plural "us", also note only the LORD speaking (no mention of others) in verse 6 as well as verses 8-9. There is no indication that God was speaking of created angels in the us passage in Genesis 11:7 when He said "let us"
Genesis summary
Of the three "us" passages in Gensis (1:26; 3:22; 11:7) there is no indication that God was speaking of created angels as well as himself. The only verse which can be used to try to introduce created angels (Genesis 3:24) is not sufficient enough to establish that God was speaking to created angels in verse 3:22, let alone Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7.
The context of Genesis 1:26 (compare Genesis 1:27; 5:1)as well as the context of Genesis 11:7 (Compare Genesis 11:6; 11:8; 11:9) strongly support that God alone is being spoken of.
I hope (Lord willing) to have a discussion of Isaiah 6.
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herk
Hooberus,
Trinitarians belive in only one God. It is a monotheistic (one God) doctrine, teaching only one true God, who alone is worthy of worship. "One God in three persons." It does not teach that there is more than one God. Trititarians believe that YHWH is the only God and that he is unique and that He alone is the creator.
I agree that trinitarians say they believe in only one God. Still, they speak of "God the Father" plus "God the Son" plus "God the Holy Ghost." Where did this ridiculous god of theirs come from? You say "He" (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) came from the Bible, but the Bible does not say anywhere that God is composed of three Persons. Trinitarians merely stole the names from the Bible and then re-phrased those names in order to make their silly pagan god appear to be a Christian god. In the Bible, Jesus is called "Son of God" but trinitarians changed that into "God the Son." And nowhere does the Bible even hint that there is anyone who is supposedly "God the Holy Ghost."
Trinitarians are so blinded by their paganism that they can't understand language that would be plain to a little child. They say "one God in three persons" and in the same breath they say the three are one "He". If a child sees three persons, he sees three, not just one, unless the three are a team, a committee, an organization, or a group of classmates or playmates. Yet the trinitarian three are not really three since they speak of them as one "He." Little wonder that Jews, Muslims and the rest of the world ridicule Christianity! Trinitarians have painted a picture of the Bible God that is utterly blasphemous as well as absurd. It is totally inconsistent with reason as well as contrary to the Scriptures.
And then they try to convince the rest of us to stop using the minds that God gave us by accepting their bewildering and incomprehensible teaching on faith. They say there are some things we were not meant to know -- that trying to understand the Trinity is like trying to fathom space or time. In other words, they deny what Jesus said when he stated that the Jews "know" God and that life eternal depends upon our getting to "know" the "only true God" and Jesus the "one" whom God sent forth. (John 4:22; 17:3) One plus one plus one plus one doesn't add up to three in their minds. To them, "one" is spelled "t-h-r-e-e," "three" is spelled "o-n-e," and one plus one plus one equals one. This plainly illustrates that trinitarians are extremely poor at arithmetic, spelling, thinking and especially in handling the Bible.
Herk
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hooberus
Herk, hypothetically speaking - if the scriptures do indicate that the one true God YHWH does in fact exist in a composite unity will you believe the scriptures even if it goes aginst your human reason?
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herk
Hooberus,
Is there any place in the Bible which shows that angels had a part in the making of man?
Would you believe it if it were shown to you? I've already given you several texts that show the angels were present at creation, that they "perform his word" (such as God's word "Let there be light" and "Let us make man"), that God is often given the credit when angels carry out his work. What more do you want? It seems you're looking for a text where God specifically states "I meant angels and Me when I said 'us'." Well, there is no such text. Neither is there one that says "I meant the Trinity when I said 'us'." However, as I've clearly shown, the weight of evidence is toward viewing "us" as God and the angels. You have supplied merely your interpretation and not a shred of evidence in the context or elsewhere that God meant a trinity! There is not a single text in the entire Bible where other so-called members of a trinity are mentioned when God uses the term "us." On the other hand, there are examples of where angels were present when he said "us."
I really wish you would at least read some of this stuff that I'm writing. So far, you've carelessly ignored the following:
- Your argument has been rejected by most trinitarian scholars, but you hold on to it as if for dear life. You even deny that humans are in the image of angels as well as of God. Still, b oth angels and men are in God's image as shown by many passages of Scripture.
- Most Bible scholars agree that elohim in the Hebrew language refers to a plural of intensity. The Word Biblical Commentary says regarding the trinitarian idea of numerical plurality, "It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."
- Most Bible scholars agree with the Jews that Genesis 1:26 is referring to "the divine council" or "the members of God's heavenly court," namely, the holy angels.
- The Bible says that "the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." (Ex. 33:11; De. 34:10) If any man has known whether God is one Person or three, Moses was that man. He wrote Genesis 1:26 and certainly knew what he was writing about, yet he was not a trinitarian. Neither were the Jews who treasured his words and preserved them for future generations.
- The Hebrew shema emphatically states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6:4) That is what Jesus believed and taught. (Mr. 12:29) God is not three Persons each of whom is the Lord. He is "one Lord," not three Lords.
- It is a fundamental error to attempt to take the trinity concept of centuries later and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown among the Jews at that time.
- You quoted Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." If God is a Trinity, and we were created in the image of God, why are we not also each a trinity? Where is the individual on earth who is composed of three distinct persons? Scripturally speaking, the fact that none of us is a triunity of persons bears out the fact that God is also not a triunity of persons.
- There are thousands of instances in the Bible where God speaks of himself as "I," "me" or "myself." Why do you give priority to a mere few verses -- a few verses where God says "us" and "our," and then proceed to suggest that those few verses mean God was wrong those thousands of times when he spoke of himself as "I," "me" or "myself"? You are so caught up in your biased view of the two words "us" and "our" in the first part of Genesis that you don't realize what the vast majority of biblical texts -- thousands of them -- are trying to tell you.
- Every writer of the Old Testament was led by the holy spirit, but that spirit never led them to become trinitarians. None of them viewed or addressed God as a trinity. But you want us to believe that you have a sharper insight than they had. You see a trinity in what they wrote even though they did not.
- You are being dishonest and deceptive when you insist that your Trinity is the same as the "one God" who was worshipped as the true God by the ancient Jews. Your god is composed of three persons while the God of the Jews was one Person alone.
- Trinitarians are so blinded by their paganism that they can't understand language that would be plain to a little child. They say "one God in three persons" and in the same breath they say the three are one "He". If a child sees three persons, he sees three, not just one, unless the three are a team, a committee, an organization, or a group of classmates or playmates. Yet the trinitarian three are not really three since they speak of them as one "He." How do you explain this trinitarian assault on human language?
Why don't you choose to deal with any of these problems that I've posed? Is it because you actually have no answer?
Herk, hypothetically speaking - if the scriptures do indicate that the one true God YHWH does in fact exist in a composite unity will you believe the scriptures even if it goes aginst your human reason?
My concern is for what the Scriptures teach. You haven't supplied a shred of evidence to indicate that a trinity is meant at Genesis 1:26 or anywhere else in the Old Testament. If I have a choice between the Scriptures and your reasoning and speculation, I opt for the Scriptures. Based, not upon mere human reasoning, but upon their careful study of the Scriptures, most scholars go thumbs down on your idea. Why do you prefer your human emotions and feelings over what serious Bible research has brought to our attention? Herk -
herk
Hooberus,
You wrote concerning Genesis 11:7:
Note the plural "us", also note only the LORD speaking (no mention of others) in verse 6 as well as verses 8-9. There is no indication that God was speaking of created angels in the us passage in Genesis 11:7 when He said "let us"
Why do you choose to ignore those texts that show specifically that angels sometimes do the work of God and then God gets the credit? I've shown you that the Bible at times says "the LORD" did this or said that when in actuality it was an angel or more who did it or said it. Why do you reject those portions of the inspired Scriptures and give preference to your own feelings and speculation?
Herk
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hooberus
Would you believe it if it were shown to you?
Yes, if there were places in the Bible that said that angels had a part in the making of man I would believe it.
I've already given you several texts that show the angels were present at creation,
As I said before, I think that there were probably other heavenly persons (besides God) present when God said: "Let us make man." However, the issue is not just their being present along with God, but who was God speaking of when He said: "Let us make man." The fact that they may have been present (though they are not mentioned) does not necessarily mean that the "us" is speaking of them as well as of God.
The issue is: Is the "us make" of Genesis 1:26 referring to God alone (indicating a plurality of persons within the one God) or is the "us make" referring to God and angels (indicating a plurality of separate beings being involved in the making of man)?
The context supports the former (compare Genesis 1:27; 5:1).
that they "perform his word" (such as God's word "Let there be light" and "Let us make man"), that God is often given the credit when angels carry out his work. What more do you want?
Earlier you said: " Note Psalm 103:20, 21: "Bless the Lord, you his angels, mighty in strength, who perform his word, obeying the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all you his hosts, you who serve him, doing his will." Can you imagine them sitting around and doing nothing when God said, "Let there be light," "Let there be an expanse," and "Let us make man"? (Gen. 1, 2) They "perform his word, obeying the voice of his word."
Just because it says in the Psalms that angels "perform his word" does not mean that angels were assisting in creation when God said: "Let there be light," "Let there be an expanse," etc. There is no direct mention of angels at all in Gensesis Chapter 1. The phrase "Let us make man" in Genesis 1:26 contains no direct reference to angels, and other verses support that God alone was the maker of man.
It seems you're looking for a text where God specifically states "I meant angels and Me when I said 'us'." Well, there is no such text.
No there is no such text, nor is there any verse in the Bible which states that angels had a a part in the making of man.
Neither is there one that says "I meant the Trinity when I said 'us'."
While Genesis 1:26 does not in itself show the complete Trinity doctrine it does demonstrate a fundamental concept associated with the Trinity, that is the concept of composite unity within the one God. Genesis 1:26 as well as the other "us" passages in Genesis do support this.
However, as I've clearly shown, the weight of evidence is toward viewing "us" as God and the angels. You have supplied merely your interpretation and not a shred of evidence in the context or elsewhere that God meant a trinity!
Let me clarify what I mean when I and other Trinitarians use Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 to provide evidence for the Trinity. We use these verses to establish a fundamental Trinitarian concept that of composite unity within the one true God. This provides support for the basis of the Trinity revealed more fully in other scriptures. Trinitarians use verses such as Genesis 1:26 to estabish this fundamental Trinitarian concept, not for the complete Trinity doctrine of one God in three persons.
As for the claim that "the weight of evidence is toward viewing "us" as God and angels" I refer to my earlier comments:
" Of the three "us" passages in Gensis (1:26; 3:22; 11:7) there is no indication that God was speaking of created angels as well as himself. The only verse which can be used to try to introduce created angels (Genesis 3:24) is not sufficient enough to establish that God was speaking to created angels in verse 3:22, let alone Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7. The context of Genesis 1:26 (compare Genesis 1:27; 5:1)as well as the context of Genesis 11:7 (Compare Genesis 11:6; 11:8; 11:9) strongly support that God alone is being spoken of."
As for the claim that I have "not a shred of evidence in the context or elsewhere that God meant a trinity" See my above paragraph. Also, please keep in mind that I am using these passages to primarliy establish composite unity and not the total trinity doctrine ( I should have clarilfied this on the first post). I have presented evidence in the context of these verses which does indicate composite unity.
There is not a single text in the entire Bible where other so-called members of a trinity are mentioned when God uses the term "us." On the other hand, there are examples of where angels were present when he said "us."
I hope to respond to this as well as your other points shortly.