Herk....Misrepresentation occurs on both sides, my only point was that there are surely far better things to read from a unitarian point of view than the Trinity Broshure which deliberately and doggedly takes statements out of context and plays fast and loose with its sources.
The Trinity in the Old Testament
by hooberus 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
hooberus
Several Years ago the Watchtower Society produced the brochure "Should You believe the the Trinity" Below are 3 specific refutations.
1. "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity" by Robert Bowman (easy to read book, great for beginners).
available all over the web
2. Yes ... You Should believe in the Trinity by Christy Harvey (more detailed and specific)
http://www.witnessinc.com/ordering%20materials.html#General
3. Exposing Should You believe in the Trinity by Angel Arellano (I haven't read this one yet, but it looks good)
-
hooberus
The Bible says that "the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." (Ex. 33:11; De. 34:10) If any man has known whether God is one Person or three, Moses was that man. He wrote Genesis 1:26 and certainly knew what he was writing about, yet he was not a trinitarian. Neither were the Jews who treasured his words and preserved them for future generations.
We do not have the "mind" of Moses, we do have his words though (which were inspired by God). Therefore we need to look at his words in order to determine correct doctrine. We can agree that Moses wrote of YHWH being the only God. The issue is then: Do Moses words present the one God as existing in an absolute unity or do they give an indication that YHWH may have existed in a composite unity? Trinitarians believe that God has revealed himself in a progressive manner through scripture, beginning with Moses, and then through the prophets, and finally in the New Testament. We therefore expect that the Old Testament will emphasize that YHWH is the only God. We also expect to see some evidence of composite unity within the one true God YHWH. We don't necessarily expect to see a fully developed Trinitarian revelation in the Old Testament (though we do expect to see foreshadowings of it.)
Trinitarians thus believe that even in the writings of Moses that indications of composite or compound unity within the one true God do exist. Once again we do not necessarily believe that there is a full revelation of the Trinity in the Old Testament in sense that the New Testament gives. This is similar to other scriptural doctrines which are foreshadowed in the Old testament and more fully revealed in the New Testament.
The Hebrew shema emphatically states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6:4) That is what Jesus believed and taught. (Mr. 12:29) God is not three Persons each of whom is the Lord. He is "one Lord," not three Lords.
I plan on discussing the shema more fully later. However keep in mind that Trinitarians believe in one God YHWH, not three YHWH Gods.
-
hooberus
The word "one" written by Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 is not the Hebrew word yachid (which denotes absolute oneness), but is instead the Hebrew word echad which can denote a compound or composite unity.
Re: Deuteronomy 6:4 Robert Morey comments:
"But how can this be the true understanding of [ echad ] when the Jews today reject the doctrine of the Trinity? The Noted Hebrew scholar, David Cooper, explains:
Prior to the days of Moses Maimonides, the unity of God was expressed by [ echad ] which, as has been proved beyond a doubt, has at its primary meaning that of a compound unity. Maimonides, who drafted the thirteen arcticles of faith, in the second one sets forth the unity of God, using the word [ yachid ] which in the Tenach is never used to express God's unity. From these facts it is evident that a new idea was injected into this confession by substituting [ yachid ] which in every passage carries the primary idea of of oneness in the absolute sense for echod which primarily means a compound unity. Hense from the days of Maimonides on, an interpretation different from the ancient one was placed upon this most important passage."
Since echad can at times denote a composite unity, and since yachid is not used in Deuteronomy 6:4, the passage does not disprove the Trinitarian concept of one God in three persons (composite unity).
-
fearnotruth22
Leo: I repect your views on the TRinity Brochure however:
You conclude that I have not checked the refeerences in the T broch. How do you know what I have done, and what I have not done.
The probelm with some conclusions is that they have no basis. That is one line of argumentation that the T brochure shows challenging the Trinty dogma, a concusion without foundation. The entire T Broch cannot be discredited because some individuals may feel that the citations therein do not support the arguments or that the citations are a misrepresentation. I disagree with that feeling. The references cited in the T broch do support the arguments.B ut even without any references showing "church fathers" views, the T broch is solid. It is magnificent. The Poster's reasonings in support of the TRinity are torn apart by the evidence and argument found in the T broch. The T broch is one great piece of lit that trashes the trinity in my opinion. Dont have to agree with all wts dogma but I give credit when it is due. And the T brocure merits credit.
-
herk
fearnotruth,
The T broch is one great piece of lit that trashes the trinity in my opinion. Dont have to agree with all wts dogma but I give credit when it is due. And the T brocure merits credit.
I spent some time today re-examining the brochure, and I compared it with notes I have from other sources. I agree with your view. I'm generally not a WTS defender, but I think they did an excellent job with the brochure. Trinitarians, of course, will attempt to tear it apart and put it up for ridicule. It's a very sad thing to me that they fail to see how absurd their own teaching really is and how extremely little support it has in the Bible and in the earliest history of Christianity.
herk
-
-
hooberus
It is a fundamental error to attempt to take the trinity concept of centuries later and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown among the Jews at that time.
Trinitarians are not implying that the Old testament Jews used the word "trinity", nor that they had the fully revealed doctrine in Old testament times. Trinitaians believe that the term "trinity" and the doctrine of One God in three persons is an accurate description of God as revealed in the complete scriptures. Trinitarians believe that the Old testament does contain foundational concepts supporting the Trinity, such as One God, and strong suggestions of plurality within the one true God. Other Old testamnet passages support the deity and personhood of each member.
You quoted Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." If God is a Trinity, and we were created in the image of God, why are we not also each a trinity? Where is the individual on earth who is composed of three distinct persons? Scripturally speaking, the fact that none of us is a triunity of persons bears out the fact that God is also not a triunity of persons.
The fact that God created man in his image means probably means that man has one or more characteristics of God, that animals do not. It does not necessarily mean that man will have all of the characteristics of the nature of God. For example God is omnipotent and He created man in his image, however this does not mean that man will also have omnipotence. Nor would it be a good argument to try to imply that since man is not omnipotent, that therefore God could not omnipotent be since man was created in God's image. In the same manner the idea that man may not be composed of three persons does not necessarliy prove that God is not. Some interpret Genesis 1:26 as relating to the spiritual nature of man (compare John 4:24; Zechariah 12:1) others interpret Genesis 1:26 that man shares an exact physical nature with God (for example some Mormons). Some Trinitarians point to biblical statements that man has a body, soul, and spirit (3 things) in order to support the Trinity from Genesis 1:26 (other trinitarians may not use this argument).
Summary: This "argument" againist the Trinty would probably only be valid if God created man with all of the complete characteristics of his [God's] nature.
-
hooberus
Re: Trinity Brochure
I have looked up some of the references in the brochure. I have also gone through the proposed biblical arguments as well. Earlier I listed three specific refutations of the brochure. I have examined to a varying extent two of them (the first two). Those who wish to use the Watchtower's brochure should get the above resources.
The following is a reference list from freeminds:
"After spending many hours trying to trace down the quotes from the Watchtower's "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" booklet, we decided to call the Watchtower's Writing Department to see if they would help. After three tries, they sent us their reference list. We desire that as many ministries as possible would have access to this list, in hope that it will show Jehovah's Witnesses that many of the quotes are actually misquotes or taken out of context." http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/rbt_ref.htm
-
herk
Despite what the Bible actually says, this is how some trinitarians read Genesis 1:26, 27, 29-31:
And GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST said, Let US THREE PERSONS make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So THE THREE PERSONS IN GOD (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) created man in THEIR own image, in the image of THE THREE PERSONS IN GOD created THEY him; male and female created THEY them. ... And THE THREE PERSONS IN GOD said, Behold, WE have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, WE THREE have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And THE THREE PERSONS IN GOD saw every thing that THEY had made, and, behold, it was very good.
herk